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Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1801: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:23:30 PM

Yeah that is the main reason I brought it up. This mentality and rules, while it isn't the only cause, it is one the reasons why the CM thread has been so divided from the rest of the wiki and why that now needs to be fixed.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1802: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:25:27 PM

@ Library: I mean, you can downvote for reasons that aren't about personal taste still... you don't have to approve a character who legit doesn't fit, but yes, it is (or at least should be) against the rules to vote to cut content just because that content upsets you in some way. Like... Obviously it's not ideal, but... thems the rules.

For example, the Memetic Mutation cleanup often comes across politically charged memes or memes from a hatedom of the work in question, and many don't like these things, but in all cases it's been ruled that as long as these things are legitimately memes then they stay.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:26:56 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#1803: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:27:09 PM

At the end of the day, if this is the line we wanna draw? I'm tired of arguing about figuring "what is or isn't tasteless schlock and banning it from discussion for that" as a topic, here. If someone is so desperate to discuss a shitty character from a shitty story with a premise like "Stitch molests Lilo" and wants to discuss it? Fine, they can go for it. If any thread user has an issue the work can be discussed on Content Policy if it's allowed to even be listed on the site, and if it is? Then ok, the character can be listed, shitty, edgy garbage it may come from.

Now, if a mod, with the hat on, explicitly spells out the threads don't have to entertain things like that? I'll be the first to gleefully adhere to that ruling and shut down discussion on "rapist Bob the Builder." But until then, I think this is ultimately a case of simply falling in line with the rest of the site to make this process as simple, smooth as possible. I can dislike the idea and thought of discussing "blood drinking Dora the Explorer" all I want, but it makes logical sense by the site's rulings to just let those examples come through, question if they abide by site policy—not thread "policy"—and go from there.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:29:00 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1804: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:28:36 PM

[up][up]Yeah that ultimately is voting with an agenda which isn't allowed (or at least shouldn't be allowed)

Edited by papyru30 on Oct 9th 2022 at 7:28:56 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1805: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:29:17 PM

Like don't get me wrong, I don't like this as much as you guys, but if we want to work to fixing the issues that caused this thread to happen in the first place I think its going to be necessary.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#1806: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:29:30 PM

Okay, so that’s settled then. The CM thread is given no special exceptions from anywhere else on the site, so no special rules in place, as in nothing to stop them from being proposed.

Still feel free to downvote trash like that, or report them to the Content thread.

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1807: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:30:23 PM

So what I'm getting from this is that, if we think someone's voting with the agenda of denying a character they find tasteless, holler and move on?

Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#1808: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:31:25 PM

[up][up] The point is that downvoting just because you hate the work in question should not be allowed: if you can't be objective about the work, you should recuse yourself from the discussion.

Edited by Orbiting on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:35:09 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1809: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:33:22 PM

Technically we aren't allowed to downvote stuff because "the work is trash/racist" because that's still voting with an agenda, votes still need to be based on the validity of the candidate even if the work is terrible. We can abstain and not participate in the discussion but downvoting on personal taste is not allowed

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#1810: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:34:57 PM

I mean, a pretty significant part of the original TRS is that the pages were filled with things like "rapist Twilight Sparkle". We have had recent mod interventions and addendums to the rules that came down on the side of the pre-existing "taste" ruling. I have no idea why this sudden 180 has happened, and I especially have no idea why a thread that was rightfully concerned about slowing down rate of new entries is suddenly concerned that our standards are too strict

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#1811: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:36:03 PM

Yeah, I'll be frank: I'll likely be just staying out of discussion on candidates like that if they come through. I won't downvote if the character and work technically qualifies to be listed on the site, sure...but I will be using the "abstain" option plenty, and I'd encourage anyone else who feels similar about characters like "satanic blood ritual Baby Yoda" that come through to simply do the same and move on to discussion you care more about. If the character goes up, they go up, and until mods tell us with their mod authority that we can downvote for taste reasons, there's really nothing to be said.

Edited by Ravok on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:37:48 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1812: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:37:01 PM

As said before, that does not mean we cannot fix it now it just means the problem was not exactly our fault.

Bow to the Prototype
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1813: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:37:04 PM

[up][up][up] It's less about the standards being to strict and more about how we are working separately from how the rest of the site does it.

[down] Yeah I would like to hear what they have to say as well.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:37:25 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1814: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:37:04 PM

Actually, what are the mods' opinion on this? They do ultimately have the last say, not saying that we aren't allowed to contribute to the policy but if the mods just step in and say "no propaganda" then we can't do anything about that.

Edited by papyru30 on Oct 9th 2022 at 7:39:18 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1815: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:38:19 PM

Also, remember that the same people who said that the thread was "adding too much" are different people from the people who think that the thread is too exclusionary. It's a flip of the discourse for sure, but it's also different groups expressing these opinions.

And since the biggest issue was the thread's culture and cliquey-ness, then this discussion is a necessary step toward having the threads work with the rest of the wiki, not as a separate sub-project.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:39:22 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#1816: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:39:28 PM

Okay.. then can people at least abstain on racist works? Like can you really be suspended for “refusing to upvote racist propaganda”?

[up][up]That could potentially make life a lot easier

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:40:28 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1817: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:40:31 PM

[up] Yes you can abstain that has been the whole point.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1818: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:40:44 PM

As said before, yes you can abstain and such.

Bow to the Prototype
ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1819: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:40:59 PM

Can I just suggest (again) that if we ultimately rule that CM has to drop the tastelessness requirement, then we should encourage a disclaimer at the start of such candidates' discussions? It will be a lot easier to revise yourself from a discussion if you get out right off the bat.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1821: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:41:13 PM

Right, abstaining is a free action, you just can't downvote if the only issue is not liking the work.

Edit: A disclaimer... like a content warning?

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:41:34 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#1822: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:41:39 PM

Like I just said, we'll use the abstain option. It's your friend. We don't have to participate in discussion on things we have no desire to, and while I would love for mods to tell us we can downvote on personal taste, until then? Abstain button and frankly just even ignoring the discussion on characters you find tasteless is the best bet.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1823: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:42:27 PM

I'm good for waiting on that for that particular discussion.

IMO, I do agree voting no based upon "it's trash" etc. to be very agenda-driven. That said, I can understand if the Mods feel it's fair to consider that a work that shouldn't be allowed to have one too. It's okay for the site to have standards. It's just not okay to try and apply them to voting in these cases. Special rules should be removed.

The reason I like the idea of "the fanwork is too far off from the original" is because it's not its own thing either, so it isn't just a work being kind of tasteless. It's a non-endorsed version of a work where people constantly try to villify character or make them more heroic for whatever reason. While this doesn't matter for licensed works, because they're still official, they're not exactly the same here. On the other hand, in a way, it shouldn't matter either because it's still a special standard. I can go either way on it, mind you. As long as the work's narrative etc. are fine, then a candidate would be logical to apply, like any other work.

I hope that makes sense to what I mean.

Shadow?
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1824: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:43:31 PM

Yeah we were also considering in this discussion removing the Ron the Death Eater rules and Fan Works having to be similar to the original setting rule. I don't think that had any opposition.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:43:38 AM

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1825: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:43:52 PM

@WarJay Yeah, a content warning on things that a large chunk of the thread isn't gonna want to mess with. I don't think we can really require it when different people draw the lines at different places, but I think it'd be a good practice with little to no downside.


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