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ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1776: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:46:17 PM

As someone else brought up, 99 abstains, 5 yeses, and 0 nos is still enough for the candidate to count

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1777: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:48:12 PM

If that happens it is what it is, not every candidate that gets put up we are going to particularly like being up.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1778: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:51:29 PM

Currently, abstains are purely neutral and don't matter. It just means they are paying attention and can make a hard decision based upon discussion later. That doesn't mean it can't be modified, though. But perhaps we can think on that a bit later while we're working on this particular rule?

That said, I don't see any use for a tastelessness rule anyway. It actually tries to make our rules more special than they should be. Now, the idea of the ROCEJ thing is better, since it means that we can figure out if the work has a proper narrative to have a true Complete Monster, but moreso, if it can even have enough proper tropes for a page. So it works much better as an objective way to handle it while leaving emotions far more aside.

Shadow?
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1779: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:54:02 PM

For a specific example of what I'm getting at. A while back a french web story called "50 Shades of Red" got it's Villain Protagonist put up for a while until I read it and explained that it's a garbage story with no plot beyond "guy becomes a Serial Killer, is caught, and kills himself" and the thread agreed to cut him. The main character has a personality but the story itself is awful with a threadbare plot, but at the same time, I don't think there's anything stopping it from having a page on this site. If we say that a work can have a keeper if it can have a page when talking about racist propaganda, shouldn't that rule apply to crap like this story?

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#1780: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:55:17 PM

Propaganda works aren’t going to pass regardless on the grounds that the entire setting is too awful / ludicrous.

[down]It’s a technicality yes

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 9th 2022 at 5:58:31 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1781: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:56:52 PM

Well... yes and no?

In that scenario, the character was cut because the story didn't have enough content to flesh out the character to fit the criteria, right? Not just because the story was trash?

As I keep saying, a vast majority of these works have no keepers anyway... But that doesn't mean they should be banned entirely.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1782: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:56:53 PM

All it means is we can properly discuss a candidate. They're not guaranteed to go up either way.

[up] I was going to post something akin to this, but that puts out better. What matters is the full story, not just cause the story is kind of crap. The characterization can be excellent but still be a crap story anyway, which actually means, unless nobody is heinous enough for the settings, they can potentially go up.

I hope that explains it well enough.

Edited by Irene on Oct 9th 2022 at 7:58:45 AM

Shadow?
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1783: Oct 9th 2022 at 5:58:10 PM

[up][up][up]That's not going to be true 100% of the time though. I recall us downvoting a character because the work was propoganda for Church of Happyology even though everyone agreed that it did technically meet all the other standards.

[up][up]No the reasoning was just because it barely had a plot, even though the main character had enough personality.

Again my concern is consistency between how we treat racist bullshit and threadbare plots and stories written to get a character up.

Edited by papyru30 on Oct 9th 2022 at 7:01:21 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1784: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:00:11 PM

Well, ok, but what's being argued here is that doing cuts for that reason shouldn't be allowed.

It was done in the past, and that's the problem.

All that means is that up to this point, works being tasteless or unsavory were rejected by default — not that such a practice is actually a good thing to keep doing, especially if one of our goals is to stop the threads from having their own special rules and treatment.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#1785: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:00:19 PM

Yeah its the same thing with Paul from the Karla film he meets all the criteria he was only removed due to the work being very tasteless.

[up] Yeah this is what I have been trying to say.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:00:45 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1786: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:02:58 PM

I mean... I guess I don't see how a character can have a fleshed out personality, motive, etc. in a story that barely has a plot. At a certain point, a plot is sort of necessary to show things like a heinous standard, potential redeeming qualities, and more. That's why I find it kinda silly to compare "no plot" to "propaganda work". You're conflating apples and bananas.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:03:43 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1787: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:04:39 PM

The reason I brought this up is because I recall pretty much everyone here agreeing to not allow characters from really short stories with threadbare plot and stories that were written just to get a character up when, at least to me, the reasoning behind that is very similar to the reasoning being given to not allow characters from racist propaganda.

Like Day of the Choosing was written to put up a character with a name that was an in-joke with the thread and it was eventually cut because it had a very thin plot even though the character in question had a personality and was bad enough. If we agree that racist works still deserve to have candidates, I feel like we should allow a character like that up (or the 50 shades of red guy)

Edited by papyru30 on Oct 9th 2022 at 7:13:20 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1788: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:10:03 PM

It's really hard to explain it better than I already did, so... :/ (And I could be entirely wrong in my explanation, to be fair... but it makes sense to me)

On that note I firmly disagree with banning "works made to have CM's" as well, if only because intent is irrelevant throughout most of the rest of the wiki anyway. I mean yeah the works are probably shitty and it's a bad move to make a short story just to have a character get the label, but again my stance has more to do with not wanting CM to get special exemptions the rest of the wiki doesn't have than with the quality of the works.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:10:48 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1789: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:11:02 PM

The thing is we specifically did that to limit the badge of honor mentality. We’ve had several documented cases of thread goers specifically making stories entirely to get the character approved - if that doesn’t say badge of honor then I don’t know what does. It’s not about the quality, it’s discouraging the bad mentality as much as we can

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:11:35 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1790: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:12:27 PM

Like I said — bad practice, but if we were being completely objective and only following trope criteria and wiki rules, it wouldn't be banned. That's all I have to say.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 9th 2022 at 9:12:42 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#1791: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:12:57 PM

If that happens it is what it is, not every candidate that gets put up we are going to particularly like being up.

Well, yes, but if people who would downvote are disallowed from doing so and a character goes up, that's a far bigger problem than just not agreeing with a character, and people are saying "I am downvoting because I personally find this tasteless" should be disallowed

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1792: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:14:56 PM

Hypothetically speaking, what's to stop someone from coming up with a flimsy justification not to put up a "tasteless" candidate?

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#1793: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:14:56 PM

What I was getting at it, if we really had to we could always use loopholes to disqualify the propaganda if we really aren’t allowed to have a rule in place.

And yeah, tastelessness shouldn’t be a reason. Being a GDV =/= tasteless

EDIT: But yes, I’m all for going to Content thread and purging a problem work from the site as a whole, rather than playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner ourselves

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:17:20 AM

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1794: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:15:47 PM

I am basically with Jay, if someone has a problem? They can take it to content policy and such or other parts of the site. This is to avoid us having house rules and such.

Bow to the Prototype
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1795: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:16:35 PM

Honestly, this just returns to the whole "house rules" argument we are trying to fix.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#1796: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:19:04 PM

We can ban loopholes then, since they are clearly just a case of trying to ignore the rules.

There's no technicalities. They either apply for the criteria or they don't. That includes whether the settings can logically have a Complete Monster too. I.E. why South Park etc. isn't allowed to have one. Settings make it impossible(and other reasons, but that's one of the main ones).

Shadow?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#1797: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:20:01 PM

I'm of the camp that nixing bigoted works is above our paygrade, but I'd also refuse to upvote them on principle. My personal opinion is they shouldn't be allowed on the wiki but that's far beyond the scope of the thread.

All that said, I also can't say I see this coming up very often.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Oct 9th 2022 at 6:21:09 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1798: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:20:32 PM

Right.

In no other part of the site do these things matter. No other trope cleanup is even allowed to make decisions like this, let alone enforce them. Finding it uncomfortable or annoying isn't a valid reason anywhere else on the wiki to remove content that doesn't technically break the rules or cause problems.

That's what it all comes down to.

Now, if the wiki eventually decides to ban "tasteless" works, then problem solved — but trying to find reasons to ban these things from CM really is another example of CM having special rules in the first place.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#1799: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:22:19 PM

Yeah, Jay's pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#1800: Oct 9th 2022 at 6:23:16 PM

I am not talking about house rules, I am talking about the fact that saying you can't downvote certain candidates is a truly bizarre stance to take. Not even "they can be proposed, and you can vote whichever way you want", but "you have to upvote or abstain"

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA

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