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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1151: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:01:01 PM

Right; at the very least we can try out the system with some "obvious candidates" and even some obvious non-candidates to see if it's obvious enough or not from a small writeup alone. Like with everything, if the trial fails then just scrap the idea.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1152: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:05:53 PM

Coming back to the thread after some time and I have a few responses to things I missed

Firstly regarding what Star and Jay were talking about with where to put the note about collaborations, we should put it in the discussion dates page and the sticky header (and in the FAQ page if that sticks around). Imo the more places relevant rules are posted, the more likely people will see them.

I support the idea that the first downvote should have an explanation, but I think if the OP isn't sure if the proposed character counts the first upvote should also have an explanation.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1153: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:07:41 PM

That's not a bad idea - we've had EP's where the person abstains, so if the person abstains, the first upvote requiring an explanation isn't a bad plan

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1154: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:09:57 PM

we're also going to try to phase out jargon like "heinous standard", right? it seems like a useful qualifier, but i think it's better to say "I don't think this person is evil enough" than just "heinous standard, downvote" or whatever.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1155: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:10:52 PM

Oh, yeah. Let's avoid the situation we have on the Hindsight thread and stay clear of jargon whenever possible.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1156: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:15:49 PM

I'm more than happy to cut down on the jargon.

Also I feel like there should be some wiggle room for running each thread differently. The big thing for me is that, while Complete Monsters can be incredibly easy to spot and explain, Magnificent Bastards aren't as easy because the criteria for that trope is a bit more complicated and strict.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#1157: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:16:09 PM

So instead of saying “the Snake Baron fails the extremely high heinous standard for the manga”, we should say “the Snake Baron is bad enough to qualify in most series, but nearly every other Apostle either matches or exceeds his cruelty, so he comes off as a small fry in comparison.”

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#1158: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:16:35 PM

I mean I understand the desire to avoid Jargon, but is heinous standard that incomprehensible. I mean a key part of being a CM is they have to be heinous by the standards of the work they originate. Likewise this also takes into account standards of setting and genre. Papyru: Yeah that is my big concern about simplifying things to much. Its relatively simple to say why a candidate is especially heinous for the work, but its not so simple to say why their especially clever and charming whilst also being sufficiently bastardly.

Edited by MGD107 on Oct 8th 2022 at 2:17:59 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1159: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:16:54 PM

Or just "The Snake Baron isn't bad enough by the work's standards"

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#1160: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:18:53 PM

Don't have problem with jargon as long as it's explained

@papyru30, misread agree that if proposer is abstain first upvote can explain though I would more encurege it than make it rule

NOTE: Fixed exploding gibberish bug

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 8th 2022 at 2:23:58 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1161: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:19:22 PM

I mean it's easy as replacing "do they meet the heinousness standard?" with "are they bad enough to stand out in the work?"

Imo I'd heavly encourage phasing out stuff like Van Zant Syndrome and Criminal Minds syndrome because whenever those things are mentioned inevitably someone will ask what it means.

Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#1162: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:22:42 PM

I think the "X Syndrome" neologisms should be phased out because Trope Namer Syndrome means they're very unclear to those not in the know, but "heinous standard" doesn't sound that bad, it's just slightly more advanced English combined with mild jargon and I don't think it needs to be simplified. Keep that one.

Edited by Piterpicher on Oct 8th 2022 at 11:23:16 AM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1164: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:27:37 PM

see, here's the issue as i see it: if you're new to the thread and you're proposing without an EP, which would be allowed under the new system, it's not immediately apparent that "heinous standard" means they have to be especially evil for the work. it could be taken to mean especially evil in general or otherwise misunderstood.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1165: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:28:44 PM

Right. The issue isn't so much what the statement literally means, it's what it means in terms of CM criteria.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1166: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:29:36 PM

Honestly against getting rid of the heinous standard. For instance, a work that is a murder mystery would be the general standard i.e. the setting where you expect murder to happen as it is commonplace. But then you have a villain in the same setting who has a human trafficking operation.

Afterword (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1167: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:29:44 PM

Just a thought: do abstentions really have to be declared? Looking from (mostly) the outside, all that seems to do is push the ideas that either everyone is expected to vote on every EP or that some people's votes are so important that they have to declare even if they're not voting. Neither is a particularly good look.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#1168: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:29:46 PM

I think people can still use it like, occasionally. Whenever I do make an ep I can just name the section I discuss it that. Just use it less frequently I guess.

Bow to the Prototype
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1169: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:29:58 PM

[up][up][up]Nobody is suggesting that. We're just saying to not rely on jargon.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 8th 2022 at 5:30:16 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1170: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:30:48 PM

im not arguing for abolishing the heinous standard as a qualifier. im just saying you should quantify your specific objection beyond saying "i don't think they meet the heinous standard".

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1171: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:31:06 PM

Usually abstains are just there because someone is coming in for another reason and they're leaving a vote while they're there. Also, having been on the other side of both abstains and just people not voting, it is far ruder to have to deal with your EP basically being ignored rather than people actually saying "abstain" - at least when someone says they're abstaining, they're acknowledging that they've read it, whereas not voting just leaves the EP in the dust

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#1172: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:32:30 PM

I can take or leave heinous standard, mostly because I've seen people struggle with heinous standard the most and maybe renaming it would make the concept more clear

Re: abstentions: I think abstentions work best when they're explained. Maybe "abstain on X" isn't useful but "abstaining on X because there isn't enough comparison to other villains/ I'd like more info on the potential Freudian Excuse/I genuinely can't decide even with all the info there" helps

Edited by Libraryseraph on Oct 8th 2022 at 5:36:56 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#1173: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:35:50 PM

So far so good.

But I still think some reminder needs to be made to new and regular users in whatever form the new threads come in to not let people or the things they do get to you to the point where you're snapping at them. Unless you're at your most emotionally triggered state possible, you still have enough control over your actions that you can choose not to respond. Because emotions, especially those that burn hard and fast like anger and frustration, can be strongly felt but will ultimately pass or make room for others. Words on the other hand live on long after you've written them, and can follow you for the rest of your life. It's better to deal with those issues in private to keep the threads drama free.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1174: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:37:37 PM

i think one important thing to do is for everyone to collaboratively come up with an OP for the new thread, which will be pinned, that can explain the changes we're trying to make as well as having a thoroughly-explained list of what makes people qualify. that's something to be done waaaaay down the line though, we're not at that point yet.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1175: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:38:39 PM

One of the issues we had before was that the OP on the CM thread was inactive, so it was tough to make changes to it - I'd be happy to be the OP of the new thread since I don't intend to leave the site any time soon and will continue to participate in the thread, so it can be edited easier


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