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Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#901: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:07:03 PM

[up][up] That's a bannable offense. Like, it may not be against the spirit, but it's against the letter of the rule.

Yeah, I kind of think we need a voting system in the thread itself for people.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#902: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:07:19 PM

Well my earlier suggestion to vote by editing the forum posts left from earlier discussion could cover those folks?

[up]Oh dang

[down]thats what I suggested but apparently thats bannable

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 7th 2022 at 11:10:07 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#903: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:08:45 PM

Holy crap, when I left everyone was yelling at each other and now we're actually having a civil debate!

The best solution to edit banned people would be for those specific tropers to state their votes in the thread and having one of the curators add their names.

Also, I don't want to derail the discussion too much here but I'm slightly worried that we may be making the process of proposing a candidate too complex and cumbersome for newbies. Like what if a new troper wants to propose a character but others keep making proposals first when the 4 hour limit is up?

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#904: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:14:57 PM

Actually when it comes to adding stuff for edit banned users. The mods have made exceptions in the past, so maybe it could be made here.

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#905: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:16:03 PM

Quick and dirty solution is probably for edit banned people to state their vote in the thread without asking for their votes to be added to the thread, and whoever's doing the tallying adjusts the tally accordingly. That way, you shouldn't technically be ban evading (unless what counts as ban evasion ignores semantics like that).

[up] Edit: Or that.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Oct 7th 2022 at 1:17:27 PM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#906: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:57:10 PM

If we still have trouble with CM and MB a possibility is to limit them to those that have some official confirmation they're supposed to be such (for CM; Palpatine who's actor said was worse than the devil, Voldemort who author said was completely irredeemable, Lotso as they revised the work to establish him as completely unsympathetic). Not sure if such conformation for MB exists/what it would look like.

We's still have out other CM/MB rules, but making this the first requirement to identifying candidates would be simple enough anyone can contribute making the forums more open and the rule would be a big check against the BOH problem.

That would cut so many it should only be used as a last resort if other methods to fix the issues fail/aren't implemented. But we have had other examples that kept attracting such issues this was the only way to keep them.

DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#907: Oct 7th 2022 at 11:58:38 PM

So let me comment real quick. At one point it felt like, as a relative newcomer to the CM thread, a couple members were rather harsh towards me and flippantly blew me off when I had a question. It pretty much kept me from really voting any longer because I felt singled out.

But I really liked maintaining the CM and MB actor pages. That was fun.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#908: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:00:49 AM

[up][up] I am going to be pretty against that idea. Doing that would basically mean dumbing down the entire point of the trope.

[up] Sorry for you but those pages are gone, and they probably aren't coming back. The best you got is to take them offsite.

DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#909: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:06:55 AM

Can't say I'm not disappointed. Though maybe put them on a just for fun page? If not, then I can live with it. I'm fairly busy these days and that would be Zone less thing to focus on.

And, not to belabor the point but your entire response is kinda what I was referring to when I mentioned people being carelessly flippant to me.

Edited by DaceyMormont on Oct 8th 2022 at 12:08:43 PM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#910: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:12:06 AM

Sorry but the thread decided to nix the sandbox entirely since they contribute to the cliquey nature of the threads. It was agreed that moving them to JFF would just be moving the problem somewhere else instead of fixing them.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#911: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:13:01 AM

That wasn't really what I was trying to do. We are doing this due to this whole discussion and the mod intervention that caused it in the first place, and I just have to tell you what has happened. It does suck I will miss the Numbers and Incarnations pages especially as well but they did have to go so that we can work toward fixing the issues that caused this in the first place.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Oct 8th 2022 at 12:13:31 PM

Acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#912: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:17:56 AM

A thread-hop (I only became aware of this thread an hour ago and am still working my way through it. I'm on page 10) but I've had a bitter taste in my mouth for a while after I proposed one candidate with an effort post. Now she apparently didn't qualify because I missed a single detail (free-will, though in her case it's sort of questionable), and that's not the problem. The problem was that another user accused me of bad faith posting because I somehow missed that detail. I formally withdrew her later and was reassured that it wasn't taken in bad faith but that accusation, when directed towards me, who has done lots of good work in other cleanups, TRS, and image pickin and who genuinely missed one potentially obscure criterion hurt. A lot.

I've stayed far away from the thread since because I figured if that sort of thing happens to new posters to the thread, even if they've been on the site for over a decade, it's not worth bothering with.

My troper wall
DaceyMormont Since: May, 2020
#913: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:24:42 AM

Well. Not a total loss. They were amusing diversions but as I said, it looks like I'm getting busier these days.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#914: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:37:23 AM

I know this isn’t a specific idea to better manage the threads, but I feel like people should just keep in mind that these threads are just for fun. Having a CM or MB isn’t a badge of honor, no one has done anything in bad faith because they missed a detail or did someone from an odd source, and we should be accepting of anyone who wants to join instead of guarding off the thread because of a few ban evaders. I feel like we can forget these things (I fell into those traps now and then), but I feel like remembering that this is a hobby can help curb some of the more toxic behaviors.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#915: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:39:43 AM

While reading ideas I liked the idea of separate threads for adding new examples and cutting bad/misused ones but I can see where that would be complicated as well. Whatever happens, I hope we can find a solution that is welcoming!

EDIT: What's going to happen to the entries on the CM/MB draft sandboxes?

Edited by lalalei2001 on Oct 8th 2022 at 3:45:03 PM

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#916: Oct 8th 2022 at 12:46:29 AM

I guess they just stay there until we sort something out.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#917: Oct 8th 2022 at 1:28:31 AM

With the axed sandboxes, I don’t suppose there’s a way to make a personal sandbox extending from a troper’s profile? Pretty sure fandom/wikia has that feature.

[down]Ah thanks

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 8th 2022 at 1:36:40 AM

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#919: Oct 8th 2022 at 1:56:45 AM

re:

"assume good faith" is already a wiki-wide rule. tbh, part of the problem is that the thread hasn't been moderated but rather left to police itself.

would yall (current thread regulars) be willing to holler problematic posts, even if they're from other thread regulars? i don't expect anyone to act out on purpose, but habits don't change overnight, and i don't think it's unreasonable to expect to need a little course correction.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#920: Oct 8th 2022 at 1:57:33 AM

Also to anyone who came here with stories of bad experiences during their first time visiting the thread. I’m sorry this happened to you guys, that wasn’t cool at all, in fact I have had my own account of something similar happening to me. But I will say, it was more prevalent a few years back, with that kind of attitude very frowned upon these days.

[up]That already is very much a practice in play, anyone getting hollered for toxic attitudes, regulars included.

[down]It’s fine, don’t worry

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 8th 2022 at 2:04:20 AM

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#921: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:01:39 AM

alright. it will be very helpful if that attitude continues.

(i apologize if this comes off as condescending, i tried several different ways to word it so that it wasn't but im not sure i was entirely successful. that is not my intended tone.)

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#922: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:02:25 AM

Yeah I have seen regulars get thumped plenty of times when it is warranted.

Bow to the Prototype
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#923: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:18:05 AM

lalaei: What Ordeaux said: The Drafts stay in the Sandboxes for now.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#924: Oct 8th 2022 at 2:41:41 AM

@Lightysnake, agree that it would be easiest to keep voting sistem in threads

I also think we should keep proposal disscusions on proposal threads

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 8th 2022 at 2:45:46 AM

CapitanoNox Lord of Space from Italy Since: Oct, 2018 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Lord of Space
#925: Oct 8th 2022 at 3:10:21 AM

Ok so I don't know if what I'm about to say has already been said because I honestly haven't followed this whole discussion that much so I genuinely am sorry if in you guys' eyes I am just repeating someone else but it's honestly a problem I've felt since a very long time and I feel like this is the best occasion for me to say it. More than once I've seen people just copying votes from other users (more likely than not, users they consider "top users") without even trying to give their own opinion on why they think a character is/isn't a CM/MB. In my opinion, people should have to always specify why they're giving the vote they're giving, and not just saying "yes" or "no". This also would make it much easier to see if someone is effectively just copying someone else's vote.

Again, sorry if it's already been said. I simply thought it was important.


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