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Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#601: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:16:14 PM

If you feel ATT is going to be flooded, then it's a sign that you're moving too fast. Otherwise, I don't see the issue with getting more eyeballs on what you're doing and more voices in the mix.

The amount of work that entails though. We might as well do the EP proposals on ATT itself.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#602: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:16:30 PM

Like, to help it feel more interconnected with the rest of the site. I always like it when Mir shows up in one of them and you guys clearly have interesting stuff to say on the characters.

Tbh this would be nice. Allowing people to like feel more like their part of the entire site rather than just one part.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#603: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:17:14 PM

I just remembered that earlier on there was discussion about the idea of getting rid of the EP system altogether and just switching focus to curating the bad examples that get added, rather than having the thread itself be the ones to decide everything.

Now I'm not saying one way or another that this is a good idea, but the issues with the speed and the reservations and everything would become nonexistent if the thread didn't need to curate everything anyway.

Take this as me playing devil's advocate so we can see if there's a real benefit to the current system at all beyond that it's just "the way things work".

Like... What aspects of the current system can we do away with that don't actually benefit the trope and the discussion process, and would that help the problems we have now without inventing new ones?

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 7th 2022 at 8:18:32 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#604: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:18:16 PM

you can't force people to participate elsewhere, though. it's a great idea and it would help, but requiring someone to have X posts elsewhere for every EP seems ridiculous.

i certainly suggest it, but it's not going to suffice on its own as a solution.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#605: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:18:44 PM

Kind of feels we were making headway without that, honestly.

Look, this is where not participating might give a lack of perspective and why the mods and admins in the past kept it on. Because when that stopped, we were inundated with bad exaples that left it to "okay, now vet stuff and fix this, or we cut the trope"

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:19:30 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#606: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:19:22 PM

Yeah, as much as I'd love to see the thread regulars spread out more (seriously, there's so many threads that need help), we can't make people do anything they don't want to. That said, anyone who does want to venture to the rest of the site should feel welcome to do so.

Edit: How long ago was that, though? Site culture has changed a lot since then.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 7th 2022 at 8:20:32 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
laserviking42 from End-World Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#607: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:20:01 PM

I'm trying to see things from your side, but I keep getting vague "it wouldn't work" answers:

You did bring up a permanent link on ATT, but that would require a coding change, and those only happen once in a blue moon.

Edited by laserviking42 on Oct 7th 2022 at 8:20:12 AM

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#608: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:20:32 PM

Yeah, except I've proposed a lot more there, Laser. It doesn't feel like you're 'trying to see things' from my side when you ignore the large amounts of policies I suggested be implemented.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:22:05 AM

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#609: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:22:00 PM

To be fair to Laser, I don't think they necessarily want an ATT for every candidate. Maybe just at regular intervals, or a highly contested instance.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#610: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:22:35 PM

I very much am in favor of EPs staying. Back before they existed anyone could add anything, and EPs are great way of laying what a character is about and the potential problems and how one can counter those problems (why a character does or does not count). I remember it was sort of the wild wild west before CM cleanup thread.

Now again it would be better if discussion about characters was reserved for one thread, and the other supplemental stuff was in another. That was discussed with splitting them.

Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 7th 2022 at 8:23:26 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#611: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:22:52 PM

Right, making an ATT for every single CM and MB would be way, way too much.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#612: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:23:03 PM

I don't think an EP is required. But one should need to explain the character and how they meet the criteria. That

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#613: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:23:28 PM

To be fair, the entire wiki was the wild west back then. Again, how long ago did this rule get established and is there reasonable cause to think things will immediately fall apart again with the current wiki culture?

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 7th 2022 at 8:24:44 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#614: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:24:02 PM

Oh I wasn't suggesting we force people. if Just try and gently at least encourage them to say make pages for some of these work if they liked it enough. Or talk about X in another thread. It would really help stimulate and grow the wiki more.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#615: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:24:04 PM

Keep the EP system. E Ps are a good way to give a thorough insight into a character to see if they could qualify or not.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#616: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:24:07 PM

I was not suggesting forcing anyone to go to other parts of the site and such, just encouraging it and such.

I feel like the approval system would still be helpful for when there are new examples to put up and such. At most, I do think it would be worth emphasizing that effortposts are an option for if you like the format rather then a requirement. And as long as you cover the relevant info your good.

Bow to the Prototype
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#617: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:24:11 PM

@Warjay: We're already finding bad entries added over the place plenty of times, unauthorized cuts, etc. There's a lot of that we deal with.

I'm a little confused why you're opposed to vetting, and when we're trying to work on reasonable solutions, to go to this extreme.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:24:54 AM

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#618: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:24:24 PM

Maybe if we make the description of an EP less wordy, they will feel more accessible?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#619: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:25:12 PM

Again, this is more of a devil's advocate argument. I don't care if the effort posts stay or go personally but if the only argument against it is that it solved a problem that may not exist anymore, well... I'm not opposed to vetting and I literally said as much in the post, Lighty, I outright said it was just for the sake of discussion.

And I mean if the "bad entry" issue is still a legit issue, well, fair enough.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 7th 2022 at 8:25:52 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#620: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:25:23 PM

A word number cap for eps sounds like a good idea.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#621: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:25:31 PM

Effort posts are for explaining the work and character to anyone that hasn't seen it. That way everyone has the same amount of information as the person doing the proposal. Getting rid of them isn't something I would be okay with unless something better is suggested.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#622: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:26:08 PM

The big problem with the EP format is that it became expected over time. But we've never technically written in it as a rule to my knowledge.

I think what would help is to emphasize the EP template as a suggestion, not a mandatory rule. As long as a proposal tells us about a villain and why they should count, that covers the bases.

Keep them around, but I don't see why every proposal needs to be in the EP template.

Edited by Scraggle on Oct 7th 2022 at 6:26:41 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#623: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:26:27 PM

[up]Yeah this.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#624: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:26:40 PM

What Scraggle said.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:26:54 AM

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#625: Oct 7th 2022 at 5:26:40 PM

i think for now we should focus on regulating discussion and voting like we've been doing. more extreme solutions can be held in reserve should they prove necessary, but the less change we have to make to fix it the better.

we've had a couple of voices agree on the following, so im recasting them for more thoughts and to help nail down specifics. also, if any mods have any thoughts on these, i would appreciate hearing them.

  • limit the total number of candidates under discussion at a time.
  • limit number of active E Ps per troper.
  • implement a mandatory no-voting discussion period for each candidate.
  • use a sandbox to tally votes instead of in-thread posts; edit stomps would be an issue, can anyone come up with a solution other than people just checking behind themselves to make sure their vote got added?
  • make a post on ATT and bump it each time a crop of candidates rotates through.
  • implement a mandatory minimum voting period for each candidate, allowing time for the ATT thread to bring in fresh eyes on each one.
  • split the thread into an effortpost and approval thread and a cleanup and maintenance thread.


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