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RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5451: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:38:14 AM

[up][up] Unusually horrible is literally the same but more. Kind of my problem with this exceptionality criterion.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:38:39 PM

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5452: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:39:26 AM

I don't really think so.

There is a obvious difference between a generic killing 3 people slasher compared to a Serial Killer who rapes 3 children for a decade then killing them, and it's not just "3 people dead". This is def not "same but more".

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 25th 2024 at 1:45:11 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#5453: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:44:17 AM

We're going in circles at this point and random hypotheticals do nothing to help the conversation. These are all points that can be said in the eventual TRS since it's become clear that we're not going to accomplish anything in the discussion here. I'm really going to strongly suggest that everyone just table it, add the trope to the TRS Queue, and we move on until it's time to discuss it there.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:46:35 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#5454: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:45:03 AM

Sorry if I was impatient. It would be help if we had more TRS members (I would do cleanup but I am busy with university right now, though I will see if I can do it a bit more).

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5455: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:45:55 AM

Noting for the record that we already have objective tropes like You Monster! that cover when characters in a work think that other characters are heinous. That's another point of distinction. There's also Moral Event Horizon, which is the crossing point into irredeemability.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 24th 2024 at 1:15:36 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5456: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:47:01 AM

[up][up][up][up] If that was the explicit difference, maybe; but because it's being done on a case by case and genre by genre basis then it IS "Same description, but extra evil".

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:47:14 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5457: Jan 24th 2024 at 10:14:03 AM

You Want to add the description back to the trope. Sonce as it's confusing people.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#5458: Jan 24th 2024 at 10:24:10 AM

I agree with Ravok that while it's important to establish the candidates that fit appropriately within their works, it's just as important to not just judge genres and/or works by standards that are both subjective and unique as well. It's both simple and complicated at the same time and it allows for the trope to not be held to too high a standard that while still unique would help to maybe shed some of the mysticism that gets applied to it at the same time too—and in doing so, make it more grounded.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5459: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:04:51 AM

I looked at the articles, just to refresh my memory, and I really, really like Complete Monster as it is. It's what a trope description should be: short and sweet. But I did notice it was lacking a link to the full rules, so I added that.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ShootingStar7X Is semi-retired! Since: Dec, 2017
Is semi-retired!
#5460: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:05:59 AM

So, should any of us write an OP on this trope to add to the TRS Queue, or could we stand to wait a little longer?

Otherwise known as SolemnStormcloud.
shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
#5461: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:07:32 AM

The more I read this thread the more I am convinced that the “genre baseline” thing... should not be a thing at all. CMs should be judged on their own merits and not get compared to other works, especially ones that are completely unrelated.

The main issue is that the “genre baseline” (or whatever you want to call it) is not fixed, it changes in time as more and more works are created. I will use a hypothetical example to explain what I mean:

  • One vile bastard tortures and murders 10 people because he thinks torture and murder are fun. He is treated by the work as an irredeemable monster and so, after discussion, gets declared a Complete Monster.
  • A later, unrelated, work in the same genre features a vile bastard who tortures and murders 100 people because he too thinks torture and murder are fun. He too is treated by the work as an irredeemable monster and so, after discussion, he too gets declared a Complete Monster.

Is the first CM any less of a CM now just because the second one exists? What if the one that kills 100 people was actually first, and the one that kills only 10 people came second? Should a CM not count as a CM just because a worse monster exists in an earlier, unrelated work? What if later a third work features a CM that tortures and murders 1000 people – does that invalidate the first two?

Again, this is just in regards to the “genre baseline”. Obviously there need to be some baselines beyond “the worst villain in the work”, because even the worst villain can be sympathetic and have things that make him redeemable (and thus not a Complete Monster). But comparing the supposed CM to CMs from other works (be they from the same genre or not) should not be one of them.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5462: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:09:38 AM

[up][up]Do we need to ask trs first? Since we've had multiple before to prevent then just shutting it down outright. Or make a Wick check?

Edited by miraculous on Jan 24th 2024 at 11:10:52 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5463: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:12:49 AM

[up][up]I prefer to think of it as a sort of moving average. We aren't asking for a candidate to be the most heinous villain ever in any work. We're asking for them to rise above what audiences generally expect from such a work.

We don't have to be crazily broad about the definition of a genre, either. The rule isn't meant to include "all science fiction" or "all romance literature". Take what I said earlier about James Bond. That has enough discrete works to form a subgenre all by itself, which could be stretched to include works that parody or imitate it. Or we can look a little more broadly at Spy Fiction.

Within Spy Fiction, a villain who tortures the hero and/or threatens to commit horrible acts upon their female love interest is kind of normal. You expect that. You can't get through a Bond story without his girl being painted gold or stuffed in a box. Ergo, that's not exceptional and can't support a CM nomination by itself.

Also, we always judge any trope example in context with its time... or should. A character who was heinous enough to be called a CM in the 1970s doesn't get disqualified because their acts became the norm in the 1990s. Rather, we would note that they established the template for future works, which only emphasizes their exceptional nature.


Incidentally, calling out exceptionalism as "missing" from the main page is a bit of a strawman since there are only three criteria there and eleven in the Administrivia article.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:19:31 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#5464: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:16:12 AM

We aren't asking for a candidate to be the most heinous villain ever in any work. We're asking for them to rise above what audiences generally expect from such a work.

Okay, then the definition should say that, and it doesn't, hence why TRS is probably the best solution. If the actual definition of the trope is on an entirely different page, then why do we even have a definition page?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#5465: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:17:09 AM

[up][up]Exhibit A: Hans Gruber.

Edited by ACW on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:17:26 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#5466: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:18:29 AM

The James Bond stuff would fall under the rules about being exceptional within the work itself, which nobody is asking to remove. But James Bond is not all spy stories and the tropes associated with that franchise specifically may not apply to a different type of Spy Fiction. And a villain who stuffs one love interest into the fridge won't be heinous enough anyway even within the standards of the work itself; nobody is saying that one or two generic crimes would be evil enough.

Personally I just think that the context of the work itself is more important here. How much screentime does the villain have? Are there other villains in the work? What's the age rating? What's the time period? Could the villain have realistically done worse things based on their motives and resources? A villain who only murders two people over the course of the work likely won't pass anyway, not because there's some quota they need to meet, but because they didn't go far enough to be evil. If a character is meant to be pure evil they will almost always have the deeds to back it up, even if those deeds would be lacking compared to someone else in the same genre. The work will give them the necessary screentime, emphasize their deeds as being particularly evil, and show them going the distance.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:19:50 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#5467: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:19:29 AM

Mod hat off -

The definition should be on the trope page. That should be sufficient for anyone reading the wiki, and as a starting point for anyone thinking of proposing a candidate.

The Administrivia page should focus on the approval process (as it's unique to CM/MB), possibly the cleanup process, and the problem cases and quirks that you probably want to be aware of before writing an EP.

All IMO, of course.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5468: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:19:49 AM

There is a level of detail needed in instructions for adding tropes that is distracting/overlong when in a trope description. That's why Administrivia.Complete Monster and Main.Complete Monster both exist.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5469: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:21:02 AM

[up] What Septimus said. The list of criteria is far too long to go on the trope page. Other tropes should follow this example, IMO. Trope descriptions are for readers first and editors second... or rather, we shouldn't make casual readers scroll through twenty paragraphs to get to the examples.

Personally I just think that the context of the work itself is more important here.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that genre context is the only thing that matters, nor does it contain the interpretation that you are twisting it into. We need to consider both the work and the genre when evaluating candidates. One is not more important than the other.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:21:57 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#5470: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:21:23 AM

Okay just going to clarify that I don't mind if we remove the genre baseline and only compare, for example, a Slasher villain with other villains in the same franchise and not all other Slasher villains.

I, however, believe we should keep a general baseline because a character who only kills one or two people without any addtional rape or torture doesn't really sounds like complete monster to me. And otherwise we may as well ask why we even demand the character to be a murderer or rapist. If the worst villain in a work is a schoolyard bully who beats up other kids and steals their lunch money with zero remorses why shouldn't he be a CM?

Edited by NTG on Jan 24th 2024 at 11:22:59 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#5471: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:21:24 AM

Do we need to ask trs first? Since we've had multiple before to prevent then just shutting it down outright. Or make a Wick check?

Nah, I don't think asking is necessary. Speaking as a TRS regular, people only really care if the situation is explained thoroughly. A wick check doesn't seem relevant since it won't help us identify if the definition is lacking; examples are so tightly vetted that it wouldn't tell us anything you guys don't already know.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5472: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:21:41 AM

[up]x9 (Fighteer's last bigish post, specifically) That just makes the entry criteria even more of a farce. What even counts as the genre is inconsistent and it's an ever-evolving game of one-upmanship? If the idea is that CM isn't supposed to be a badge of honour, constantly focusing on how entries must be exceptional and unexpected for their time and place seems like the most backwards way to do it.

[up][up] Someone who only kills one or two people, but is otherwise a perfectly normal person in a perfectly normal world, and the work treats as a heinous monster for that, is in a very different situation than someone who kills one or two people in an action movie. "You must have this many bad crimes to qualify" gets weird as it excludes anything ever not being over the top.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 24th 2024 at 7:25:14 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#5473: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:23:26 AM

As for the description stuff, I'm of two minds about it. On one hand I see people add unapproved examples all the time because the description isn't clear enough about the situation. On the other hand, people are generally allergic to reading descriptions anyway which is why misuse is so prevalent even on much less complicated tropes. IDK if adding more would actually alter anything since it requires people to want to read in the first place.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5474: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:24:55 AM

If the worst villain in a work is a schoolyard bully who beats up other kids and steals their lunch money with zero remorses why shouldn't he be a CM?

Because there is such a wide gulf between "beating up kids and stealing their lunch money" and "murdering millions of people" that the former starts to look ridiculous when presented in the same trope. See also the long-running problems with Nightmare Fuel.

If the idea is that CM isn't supposed to be a badge of honour, constantly focusing on how entries must be exceptional and unexpected for their time and place seems like the most backwards way to do it.

It was a badge of honor long before we started curating it, and it will remain one long after we stop. That problem hasn't changed at all. People get really obsessed with villains.

IDK if adding more would actually alter anything since it requires people to want to read in the first place.

That's also been a dilemma on this wiki for eons. We have Clear, Concise, Witty for a reason, and far too many trope descriptions violate it. Getting people to read them at all is hard enough.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:27:05 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5475: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:26:23 AM

"It'll be a badge of honour anyway" doesn't mean that having a set of criteria that sets it apart from every other trope on the entire site and sets out to catalogue some villains for being exceptional isn't actively making it worse.


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