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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#5401: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:57:21 AM

But this sort of rule is the exact sort of thing that gives CM some badge of honor status. The more you say it's some special rare trope with special rules it becomes way more enticing to get examples added... which is something you're against. I feel that removing this rule would ironically help it stop seeming like such an honor, since it would suddenly just be another example on a page.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5402: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:57:23 AM

YorkobeShounen, It's the probability of it that is. It's not likely for anyone to bad faith say, TRS to delete tropes they don't like, but we have multiple people abusing the system to get stuff in in CM threads prior because apparently the CM trope is treated like a "badge of honor". There's at least 2 guys who got suspended by playing up stuff to fit the trope, there's 1 plagiarizer who directly copies from villains wiki, 2-3 ban evaders and even one that wrote a Helltaker fanfic to get things in until people found that the fic was bad taste (this was using the old rules and I don't know what will happen now if the same situation plays out mind you). It's a very easy to abuse system and basically relies on smart users sniffing out the poison from the real deal.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 25th 2024 at 1:01:16 AM

YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#5403: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:58:35 AM

[up][up] Again i don’t believe anyone was saying to throw out automatically. Just go loosen things up to prevent technicalties. Because sometimes being to strict on a criteria can be as harmful as being too loose

[up]I understand how it works

I was talking about the people in the thread. And if we shutdown things over every possibility we would never function

Edited by YorkobeShounen on Jan 24th 2024 at 9:00:32 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#5404: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:58:41 AM

Isn’t TRS already loaded with threads that move super slowly now because of how many people left?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#5405: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:59:39 AM

Yeah I uh heard that it may take months for the situation to be resolved given the que

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:00:42 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#5406: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:59:45 AM

If we were to migrate it to TRS, we'd put it in the Queue and then table the discussion for now. It just means we'd be going through the channel most likely to satisfy both sides of the debate, even if it takes a while.

Also, I'm gonna be honest - I genuinely have no idea what the bad faith users have anything to do with this. People are always going to be acting in bad faith, that's what the entire system was created to sniff out. I don't see why we keep having to drag the two recent incidents back into the conversation every time something goes even slightly wrong.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:01:16 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5407: Jan 24th 2024 at 8:59:46 AM

We can add to the TRS Queue

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#5408: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:00:06 AM

Yeah, but the solution is to go help things close. If TRS is needed, TRS is needed.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5409: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:00:15 AM

Complete Monster was a "badge of honor" trope long before we started a cleanup effort for it. That's a cultural thing that we have struggled vainly to change. TRS'ing the trope for the umpteenth time won't fix it.

As stated above, the broad purpose of the cleanup thread is to establish a group of (notionally) objective users who can say, "Whoa there," and curb the irrational enthusiasm.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:01:51 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5410: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:01:26 AM

I guess but an issue is the baseline stuff needs to be within the definition or it will confuse people.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#5411: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:01:47 AM

Well, I think an attempt to loosen things that causes some BO Hinb to happen may help. Jusy cuz it didn’t work several times in best ways doesn’t mean they should just stop trying again. At least personally

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#5412: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:01:47 AM

[up][up][up]Sure, but we're not trying to fix the badge of honor problem with this change, people are trying to change the trope definition. That's literally what TRS is for.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:02:12 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#5413: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:02:05 AM

Again i don’t believe anyone was saying to throw out automatically. Just go loosen things up to prevent technicalties. Because sometimes being to strict on a criteria can be as harmful as being too loose

Good, because I'm not arguing for that either? I just think the rule is a mess that's only making things artificially harder.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5414: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:02:44 AM

Also noting that we moved the criteria out of the main page and into Administrivia because we didn't want it to be a confusing Wall of Text.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5415: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:03:14 AM

Oh wait yeah we did. This is part of the main list. Than shouldn't we at least add it back.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 24th 2024 at 9:03:39 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#5416: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:03:40 AM

At the same time Fighter curbing ideas too quickly can also be a bad thing

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#5417: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:03:41 AM

[up][up][up]Then frankly that seems like another way the trope has become a badge of honor instead of another trope. I know the Administrivia page should be more detailed (since that's the page for newcomers to read), but if something just isn't in the actual definition on the trope page itself, that's just another way it's become unique that should be curbed.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:03:57 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5418: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:03:53 AM

[up] "I think this villain is a CM, but I have no experience with the genre to be able to say if they stand out enough," is exactly the thing we're trying to arrest with the rule.

But standing out enough only matters because of this rule. This is plainly tautological—the rule about needing to stand out, and needing plenty of other people to give genre context, exists because it's been decided the trope should require characters to stand out within the genre... again, unlike every other trope.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5419: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:04:04 AM

Would definitely rather put this in TRS where it gets more eyes and discussion as opposed to folks feeling like they could be punished or discussion shut down if they keep what has been healthy debate going. Let's bring it there, even if it takes awhile to codify whichever choice folks want, it's worth it for the discussion. War is summing up my feelings on the entire thing nicely.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5420: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:04:57 AM

[up] But really though, won't it be very slow like Master N said because many people left there?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#5421: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:05:24 AM

Slow or not, it's the proper channel to go through. We'd just have to table this for now until a thread opened up

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#5422: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:05:25 AM

@5414: Couldn't it have been put in a folder on the main page?

Edited by StarSword on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:05:45 PM

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
YorkobeShounen Since: Dec, 2022
#5423: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:05:39 AM

I mean does it matter if it’s slow? Do we want it to be rushed?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5424: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:05:41 AM

But standing out enough only matters because of this rule. This is plainly tautological—the rule about needing to stand out, and needing plenty of other people to give genre context, exists because it's been decided the trope should require characters to stand out within the genre... again, unlike every other trope.

Yes, because otherwise the trope becomes synonymous with Villain, or at least "the worst villain in the work". We've been there and we have the scars.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:06:09 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MermaidEyes15 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: He makes me feel like I have a heart
#5425: Jan 24th 2024 at 9:06:53 AM

Yeah if anything being slow could help benefit things

[up] Well things are different and New Years are here. Perhaps things can be more better with some changes

Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:07:22 PM


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