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Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5251: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:31:30 AM

No to the played for laughs thing assuming if it does allow half-serious villains that are played too silly at times to qualify. There's a difference between things like Movie Bowser, Kaya, Big Jack Horner, Russ Cargill, Ed II etc with Bill Cipher or Junko where their humor does NOT migitate the monstrousness of these characters at all. The played seriously rule is as fine as it is.

As for the other one, there needs to be some way to prevent say, random slasher movie/one-shot criminal procedure villains with 2 or 3 generic kills or things like DOR-15 or Nacho from qualifying, since if we don't we won't be only qualifying the worst of the worst but every random standalone villain with some kills or rapes and no redeeming qualities (hey this guy killed a kid let's vouch for him). It defeats the whole point of the trope as being a YMMV trope where only a "limited amount of villains" can qualify.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:37:31 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5252: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:32:12 AM

Like I also don't really mind putting skyes up as I also don't see why he shouldn't go up as hes agreed Fo be a very dark bad guy and is pretty bad hence why a lossening imo is something in all for

But I also do want tbis to remain a worst of the worst trope. So I do Feel some baseline Shoukd remakn in general

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5253: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:33:19 AM

I don't see why 'the genre has a high bodycount' necessitates some arbitrary baseline over every other genre. It's still a subjective characterisation trope. If a genre tends to produce irredeemable monsters who have high body counts, then... so what?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#5254: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:33:50 AM

Yeah. Hell, I'm even fine with a genre baseline. I don't wanna be putting up every action film villain who kills a few people.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#5255: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:34:20 AM

I mean, it's worst of the worst in terms of story or game they appear in.

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5256: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:35:50 AM

[up] x3 Because it wouldn't make sense for every other standalone action film or slasher film villain that has several generic kills to be qualifying as CM when the trope only points out the worst of the worst.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:35:58 PM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5257: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:36:14 AM

Again though, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there's really nowhere in the terms of Complete Monster that demand the character be "the worst of the worst" on some arbitrary "genre-wide baseline" as of now except one area of the Administrivia that has been openly said to be outdated. That has always been pretty much arbitrarily implemented because of older, more stringent rules. The entire premise of "this trope's definition is about listing the worst of the worst" is flawed when the definition of the trope is about "listing the worst of the worst in the story they come from." Anything else is adding personal biases or opinions to the trope that don't exist at this time. The fact we've been using them this long is the flaw.

It's like War said, this is not how damn near any other trope on this site works. We do not hold Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds to some random baseline of "they have to suffer at least (X) amount, or they can't count no matter how the story presents them". And I don't really see why there's such pushback against simply to get CM to fall further in line with what it's supposed to be, AFAIK.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 24th 2024 at 1:38:45 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#5258: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:39:16 AM

In the end, the tropes YMMV, what someone considers the worst of the worst in the medium might be different for someone else. Easing the fixed standard for some mediums so long as people can provide their case, I think it's game.

Comedy I'm more lenient depending on the medium, tbh I was fine with Animated!Bowser compared to say Jack Horner since Bowsers villainy was directed at innocents for reference.

What's wrong D-16? Rise up!
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5259: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:39:33 AM

Also, just going to point out that if a character fits the trope description word for word and entirely in spirit, not including them because of some arbitrary baseline makes the entire notion a joke. Might as well delete the examples section if it's intentionally non-representative.

This one trope should not be misery poker for fictional bastardry. "Sorry, this work does it worse, you don't count" is absurd.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 24th 2024 at 9:40:39 AM

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5260: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:42:12 AM

[up] x3 It would had been just a non-YMMV or Universal Trope like say, Hero Protagonist if the entire thing would be broadened to the point where every single action film or slasher film villain without a single migitating factor can qualify. It makes no sense whatsoever since it's almost inevitable that an action film or action video game will have a baddie with at least several kills, has characterization and has no redeeming qualities.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:43:18 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5261: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:43:14 AM

Oh yeah I don't really mind lossening up criteria for jsuy their own work.

[up][up]Could you maybe tone it down. This has been an okay convo so that feels a bit needlessly aggressive.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 24th 2024 at 1:43:37 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5262: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:45:16 AM

[up] x3 It would had been just a non-YMMV or Universal Trope like say, Hero Protagonist if the entire thing would be broadened to the point where every single action film or slasher film villain without a single migitating factor can qualify. It makes no sense whatsoever since it's almost inevitable that an action film or action video game will have a baddie with at least several kills, has characterization and has no redeeming qualities.

Then that means the genre has a trend towards otherwise underdeveloped C Ms.

No other trope works like this, or gets redefined to exclude valid examples because certain genres would be overrepresented.

[up] If a page is going to exclude examples because of factors completely external to both the trope description and the site guidelines, instead basing it off vague baselines, then either the description needs reworking or the examples section should be cut. Deliberately keeping it inaccurate is a disservice to everyone. Making things even more arbitrary by varying on a genre by genre basis exacerbates it.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 24th 2024 at 9:47:53 AM

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5263: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:47:48 AM

[up] So what is the point with voting then? Maybe just have people add their own examples and root and weed out misuse. Because we are not going to vote for random action film villains with 3 to 4 kills (or generic-ish villains like DOR-15 and Nacho) or criminals with just 1 rape just because yeah they have 3 to 4 kills or a single rape.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:49:29 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5264: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:48:02 AM

By the way. Before we continue. Wasn't this meant to be posted to Ask The Tropers to get second opinions from the rest of the site. And also trs I think? Can't rember.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5266: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:49:38 AM

The issue is, again, there's arguing coming from a position that doesn't even really exist and has only been arbitrarily applied for years because "that's how we do it". No other trope functions this way, there is a way for something to be subjective based on the story it comes from and not "judging by an entire genre." Again, MB does not say "are they smart by standards of action films?" Jerkass Woobie does not say "do they truly suffer by standard of tearjerking dramas?" Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds does not say "are they truly sympathetic yet also destructive compared to other shonen anime?"

YMMV is meant for the works they come from, not arbitrary "does the example stand out compared to other stories' examples." It is still fully capable of being subjective through that lense and does not become an objective trope like Hero Protagonist just because we evaluate based on the stories they come from and not random out-of-story standard. There is still a need to vote because villains can have complex motives; subvert tragic features; not stand out compared to other villains in the story; etc. This attitude of "no, all or nothing, it's been like this for years and it's not even worth keeping it YMMV if we're gonna change it" isn't conducive to a discussion.

Edited by Ravok on Jan 24th 2024 at 1:50:34 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#5267: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:51:40 AM

For an overall baseline and to prevent abuse, maybe we could specify that the villain needs to kill, rape or torture (or attempt to do any of these things) at least one person, otherwise they wouldn't be a valid example.

Edited by WatTambor on Jan 24th 2024 at 12:52:04 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#5268: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:53:07 AM

I think that only excludes the Villainy-Free Villain from consideration, and I'm not sure there's any sane way to get both tropes.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#5269: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:53:07 AM

[up][up][up]This is a fair point.

Though my question. Fridge Horror would still be excluded right per the actions need to have visibility and impact rule? As taht one is part of the criteria.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 24th 2024 at 1:55:20 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#5270: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:54:50 AM

[up][up][up] Sound fine to me

And to make clear, Im fine with lossening criteria for individual works

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5271: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:56:48 AM

Yeah, Fridge Horror still wouldn't apply on its own, we'd need more as "visibilty" is a genuine part of the trope.

I made the Ask the Tropers report, so hopefully we'll get more thoughts.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#5272: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:57:10 AM

Ravok, that's a fair point, but even aside from genre, doesn't that mean anyone who killed a single person in a standalone work count?

Mr-ex777 Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#5273: Jan 24th 2024 at 1:57:50 AM

[up]x4 None of the other tropes other than CM and MB had to be voted for either by that logic. See we don't vote for woobies we only hard undo people from adding things like Emperor Belos in. What if we only vote for complex examples instead and skip all the serial killers or action film villains with like a few kills and no other redeeming qualities?

ACW has a fair point.


Wat Tambor: Depends on work. Usually 1 is not enough.

Miraculous: Yeah Fridge Horror shouldn't be put into calculation.

Edited by Mr-ex777 on Jan 24th 2024 at 6:01:25 PM

Paperfly Buzz from On The Wall Since: Jun, 2022
Buzz
#5274: Jan 24th 2024 at 2:01:23 AM

I think we need to consider stuff like brutality and sadism (and I think we do that already - We have Old Nick from Room as an example of a single victim CM. There's also Shou Tucker whose - AFAIK - only victims are his wife, daughter, and dog).

Edited by Paperfly on Jan 24th 2024 at 10:02:52 AM

Image Pickin' Backlog
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#5275: Jan 24th 2024 at 2:05:56 AM

Like Wat said, we'd likely need something of a starting point to build off of for the entire trope, and codify that into the writing instead of just arbitrarily applying it to "genre by genre", because as has been said it isn't really lining up with anything else on the site, at least IMO.

MB has functioned fine for years even with this lack of a need for some arbitrary "baseline intelligence, must be THIS SMART to count" standard. No one is coming in proposing Patrick Star because he has one smart moment and then the whole thread going "omg, he is technically smart enough to count, list him :O"

Just like I sincerely doubt anyone is going to come into CM and say "this guy stole a bunch of candy from kids in a preschool cartoon" and then the whole thread go "omg, he is bad enough to count, list him :O" There can still be discussion over what is or isn't "Complete Monster behavior" without needing some set-in-stone "must commit THIS MANY MURDERS to count".

We have had plenty of "just one victim" villains come through, but judged them based on how uniquely awful they are (John Wakefield from Scars; several horribly abusive parents who "only" molest their kid), and that kind of subjectivity and case-by-case will continue just fine.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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