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ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#3751: Nov 23rd 2022 at 7:34:45 AM

Yeah, Turner had loved ones and was disgusted by rape apparently (I've not read that work).

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#3752: Nov 23rd 2022 at 7:50:38 AM

My interpretation is that they're considered works as of now and it's not that likely we'll usually deal with them being suggestions anyway, so there's nothing to worry about with our current rule set(any work goes for being suggested).

Please correct me if I got the summarization wrong.

Edited by Irene on Nov 23rd 2022 at 9:51:04 AM

Shadow?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3753: Nov 23rd 2022 at 8:08:10 AM

My two cents is just let people abstain at this point. It’s no big deal

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3754: Nov 23rd 2022 at 9:44:19 AM

So uh what did we decide? On Abstainations and such?

I'm uh confused.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#3755: Nov 23rd 2022 at 9:49:41 AM

Well since Septimus said that with his mod hat on I guess that settles that, we are no longer allowed to have any kind of rules about disallowing, Dark Fic stuff, Ron the Death Eater stuff, tasteless elements, or just straight propaganda works.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3756: Nov 23rd 2022 at 9:52:04 AM

Yeah but again your not forced to vote on anything or you know propose from their ?

I don't think it's a big deal since I like to think people will use at least some tact. Personal responsibility and all that?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#3757: Nov 23rd 2022 at 10:19:48 AM

Someone can propose a candidate from a fic where Mickey Mouse rapes Dora the explorer or whatever but we can all just abstain/ignore it, basically they're allowed to ve voted up but nobody has to and it can go without actually getting enough votes

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#3758: Nov 23rd 2022 at 10:56:07 AM

I mean we are still subjecting bad taste works to the same standards as good taste ones. Needs to have an actual plot and developed characters, needs to have more going on than just gore and/or gross out stuff, needs to have villains who actually stand out from each other and of course, those villains need to not have redeeming qualities. Most shock value works will not go the distance to do that so they wouldn't have anyone who counted anyway.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#3759: Nov 23rd 2022 at 11:13:54 AM

Right, basically someone is allowed to suggest whatever they want; people are allowed to not engage with an EP they don't care for. Basically, the thread is no longer allowed to make special rules about which works can and can't be pitched, but people also aren't required to respond to anything, and people can just choose to not post if they don't have anything constructive to add about the EP and character.

I also stand by the fact that this doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I don't think any of these works are conducive to a CM, not because of their edginess, but because the characters fail one or multiple requirements.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#3760: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:02:33 PM

I'm very much in favor of abstains staying. Our current rules state that you need five more upvotes than downvotes in order for a candidate to count.

So let's take a hypothetical scenario with 12 upvotes and 6 downvotes note . If someone were to switch their vote to abstain then there would be 11 upvotes and 6 downvotes and the candidate would still count, on the other hand if they switched their upvote to a downvote then there would be 11 upvotes and 7 downvotes which means the candidate no longer counts. Now one could say "I'm switching my upvote to a do not vote", but that's literally what an abstention means. As such I see no problem with people saying they are abstaining.

I can agree that someone abstaining because they're waiting for a "troper of authority" so to speak is an invalid use of an abstain, but there are perfectly valid reasons otherwise and I think it should be kept.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#3761: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:05:53 PM

The issue isn't so much with the idea of abstaining, the issue is that in a lot of cases, posting just to abstain (especially in a case where there's no vote switching) has about the same impact as not actually posting at all, except that making an official post about it can be seen as unnecessary thread bloat. And the point being made is that it's okay to not post at all.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 23rd 2022 at 4:06:34 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#3762: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:11:31 PM

And that is fine. I don't see any problem with someone saying that they don't have enough info to come to a decision and that being noted for thread purposes.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#3763: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:14:42 PM

Sure; as mentioned before though, those statements can be made without necessarily "abstaining", especially if the voting process is fully transitioned into a three-day thing. It's more constructive to ask questions or bring attention to the unclear aspects of the EP, than it is to just say "not voting until X happens".

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#3764: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:17:47 PM

Then we fundamentally disagree. Sometimes after all is said and done people will feel like they don't have enough info. And that is fine in my mind. Even if you have long periods, there is only so much convincing that some people can do.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3765: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:20:55 PM

I guess the issue is getting a deluge of abstains (if the people don't want to talk about the work) isn't really any better than you know not posting at all?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#3766: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:23:53 PM

Echoing J's sentiments, I sincerely don't see how a discussion over the wordage of "I'm not voting on this character atm" has turned into such a big deal. If someone wants to post "I abstain on (X) because (Y)", it's not hurting anyone and it's not bogging any discussion down. If someone is a dick about it, then holler and move on, but someone simply saying they are abstaining from voting is not as big a deal to me as some seem to think on it is.

This is a system of votes and debate, and it is an inherent logic that in any voting system, the option to abstain on something is a valid choice, and arguing about "you aren't allowed to vocalize your opinion to stay out of voting" is reeeeaaally just further representing my feeling that this entire topic has mostly been run into the ground and we're debating over frankly trivial things that don't really warrant the level of controlling censoring attempting to be applied. Folks can have their personal opinion over this, but I personally cannot see how "don't say you abstain, just let people assume you do by not mentioning it" is worth this level of pages-long debate in the slightest.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3767: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:28:10 PM

I admit it would be nice if we could like out some of this stuff to a crowner vote?

Like we've debated so much stuff that I do think we can at least codify it now.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#3768: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:28:17 PM

Again, nobody has said that you can't do that; we're just discussing alternatives to going about it since at a certain point, an chain of people just abstaining stops being helpful, and it seems to be related to the idea that if people don't post on the thread for every issue, it's weird and confusing.

If you want to post that you're abstaining, nobody's gonna stop you. The only point being made is that you can also just not post if you don't have anything to say, and that in a lot of cases, "conditional" abstains serve the same purpose as outright asking questions or acknowledging issues without refusing to vote. You could just... not vote. It serves the exact same purpose.

That's all anyone is saying, not that abstaining is bad and should stop or something. Just that there are other ways to get the same point across.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#3769: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:31:08 PM

Alright then, we agree that anyone is allowed to vote abstain if they want, we simply want to encourage that if they do, they have some thought put into it and could even vocalize their reasons for doing so if the need arises. If I'm reading this right, that about covers the brunt of both sides, and settles the thing.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3770: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:31:47 PM

Sounds good.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Tremmor19 he/him (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
he/him
#3771: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:01:31 PM

I could see a reason to overtly say youre abstaining, especially if people aren't sure if their suggestion has been overlooked or if people actively didn't want to vote on it. Like it could be OK to repost your suggestion (once) if it just didn't get enough responses, without counting as begging for votes

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 23rd 2022 at 5:02:23 AM

Tremmor19 he/him (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
he/him
#3772: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:05:46 PM

also— and i apologize if this has been suggested before, i read a good chunk of the pages and but its a very long thread— has anyone suggested explicitly not enforcing the rules as strictly on newbies? Like if someone first post is mostly OK but breaks a less obvious rule (like it's the 5th post on a page or is a character that's already been reserved), then you could still accept and discuss/ vote, but also gently let them know about the rules for the future

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#3773: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:08:24 PM

[up] Wouldn’t have problem with that.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#3774: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:09:56 PM

We tend to do that anyway - encourage them to learn from the experience rather than being punished for something they didn’t quite understand. Unless it’s something really egregious, but that’s not common at all

gadiel Since: Dec, 2021
#3775: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:20:14 PM

I don't see why the rules should be broken for a newbie; but certainly people can be diplomatic about pointing this out to them. For example, if they put the 5th example on a page, or effort-post a character someone else has reserved, someone could just explain this politely, and then work out what to do next. Like, "X has already reserved that character, see the list here. Maybe you and X can work together on the effort post?" or "We're only doing 4 effort posts per page, see rules here, but you can repost yours once the page turns over." (or whatever the rule is) I feel like if the rules start getting broken for new people (with the EP getting discussed etc. as if it was normal), this will be a slippery slope to let in other exceptions.


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