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EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#3101: Oct 22nd 2022 at 11:36:45 AM

Just wanted to check.

Definitely think it best to aply rule for reservations only, and when asking for collab on something else make clear it’s tropers choice. It seems to be working already.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 22nd 2022 at 11:41:02 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#3102: Oct 22nd 2022 at 12:20:36 PM

Tbh I think the emphasis that it’s the caller’s pick is enough. I get the idea of enforcing it only be done specifically when they say they’re open to it but I think a hard policy would lead to hollers from tropers asking a good faith question while not knowing or forgetting that rule.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#3103: Oct 22nd 2022 at 5:45:08 PM

Well the reason why the collabs are asked of to begin with is probably because the second party missed out on the reservation, and that goes back to the problem of hogging too many reservations under the old rule. I think common courtesy is anyone who reserved something should at least be open to collabs.

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 5:45:25 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3104: Oct 22nd 2022 at 5:46:26 PM

No, that just results in the "pressured into it" problem. People shouldn't have to even take collab requests if they aren't comfortable collabing with people. That's why it'd be best to leave it up to their discretion.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#3105: Oct 22nd 2022 at 7:40:25 PM

Well sure no one can force the person to collab if they don't want to. But it can come off as rude not to share.

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 7:40:38 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3106: Oct 22nd 2022 at 7:45:15 PM

That mentality is why people feel forced to collab in the first place. People shouldn't feel guilty just for taking a reservation.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 10:45:30 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#3107: Oct 22nd 2022 at 7:54:26 PM

No one is saying that they should feel guilty about it, we're just saying that there are polite ways to go about all of it. No one should ever be forced to do a collab - but by the same token, allowing anyone who claims a reservation to just shut any possibility of a collab down right off the bat is just as toxic in the other direction.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 10:58:29 AM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#3108: Oct 22nd 2022 at 7:55:09 PM

Wasn't taking too many reservations part of the problem to begin with in making it seem unwelcoming to non-regulars?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3109: Oct 22nd 2022 at 7:58:29 PM

Eh, I feel like by saying things like "not sharing is rude" ultimately does make people feel like they're being rude if they don't want to share, hence why the solution of "don't ask unless someone opens the door first" was suggested in the first place. By saying that people should be open to share with whoever asks, even if they really aren't comfortable with it, that implies that anyone who doesn't want to is being rude. Thus, people feel pressured into agreeing to not be seen as rude.

And reservations are being limited anyway, so that part has already been addressed in other ways.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 10:58:54 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#3110: Oct 22nd 2022 at 8:33:07 PM

Strongly agree with WarJay that we should assume a poster isn't open to collabs unless they state otherwise. Just by human nature, it's hard not to feel rude about declining the request.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#3111: Oct 22nd 2022 at 8:56:13 PM

I think it's fair if someone gives a negative response to potential collaboration on reservations or old works.

That said, I have always encouraged thread-goers to PM me for recommendations unrelated to reservations, and I have personally been open to collaboration multiple times on older works.

In fact, whenever collaborations have fallen through, I've been disappointed, because it means I'm doing things alone when I don't necessarily want to.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 11:59:13 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#3112: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:06:25 PM

I'm with Jay and Nonagon on this

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#3113: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:21:59 PM

ye, just, y'know, be polite about it.

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#3114: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:30:00 PM

Well thing is, in the past when most people put down a reservation, they wouldn't add the line "and I'm open to anyone collabing"

But at the same time, the vast majority of them are happy to collab even if they haven't explicitly said so.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3115: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:34:10 PM

Are they, or do they just feel like they have to be?

Look, if what you're saying is true, nothing will really change other than that the people who made the reservations would have to announce their willingness to collab, which people apparently already do. And if what you're saying is wrong, then the people who genuinely aren't comfortable with it will be left alone, and the people who want to collab will still get to collab.

It's a win-win, ultimately people will be happy in both scenarios, but not adding this rule will cause problems like the scenario that led to this exact idea in the first place — someone feeling forced to agree to a collab they didn't want out of a sense of "having" to. (And this isn't conjecture, the person who started this discussion had an entire story about this happening to them.)

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 12:35:28 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#3116: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:40:01 PM

No one is ever forced to do anything and I can recall several times that people politely declined people asking them to collab - one of which was me. It's genuinely not a big deal.

Like, I appreciate that we're keeping things open and communicative, but... I gotta be honest, there comes a point where people taking gentle questions as genuine pressure to avoid being rude is just a bit too much. I have never seen this be an issue before, including by people who have been shot down.

With that said, I have no real opinion on whether or not this proposed rule becomes codified because quite frankly the odds of it effecting me are pretty slim, but I'm just voicing my thoughts on the situation.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 12:42:49 PM

Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#3117: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:41:09 PM

Well I'm only a semi-regular so my experience may not be as comprehensive compared to other regulars, but from memory I have never seen anyone feel uncomfortable about agreeing to collab. The "feeling forced" mentality is, as I understand relatively rare. In fact from accounts shared here, it's far more common for non-regulars to come onto the thread and be dismayed that a work they would have liked to propose someone from had already been 'taken' by a regular.

Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:41:37 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#3118: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:45:02 PM

I'm not saying people should HAVE to be open to collaboration, and I agree that IF they are, they can say so outright of their own accord.

Look, when the to-do lists were a thing, I was always aware of the possibility that someone may beat me to the punch on certain works, and that was fine with me. I still intend on recommending new works to newcomers, and offering to collab if I have a work which I don't want to handle alone.

[down]…What point am I missing exactly?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 12:50:14 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3119: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:45:06 PM

You're missing the point.

No, nobody is ever forced to collab. And no, people don't actually care when that offer is turned down.

But feeling like you have to do it or else be seen as "rude" or "selfish" — feeling like you have no choice but to collab just because you reserved a work someone else wanted to talk about — wanting to be nice and not being comfortable saying no, especially over PM where things are much more personal and awkward for a lot of people... These things can make people feel like they don't have a choice. It's a psychological thing. Not everyone will be afraid to say no, but many people will, as already proven by the previous discussion. And those people who are socially anxious to the point of feeling trapped in that situation... Those are the people this rule is for.

To anyone who wants to collab and enjoys collabing, nothing changes here except for one extra step that just says "hey, feel free to ask me". But for people who do feel uncomfortable, that extra step goes a long way to giving them a choice, even if they already have one, it's the feeling of control over the situation. That's what some people want.

That's the reason this rule is being proposed.

Even if this situation is extremely uncommon, well... I still see no reason not to implement it just so that it never does happen.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 12:46:44 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#3120: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:51:23 PM

Well sure, I got no problem with that rule. Only possible issue is, even if they do add "collabs allowed" in their initial post of putting down the reservation, high chance that will get buried by the time someone who did want to ask for a collab comes around.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3121: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:52:02 PM

I think there's a point when this becomes overcorrection, though. I think this is making some real assumptions on how people interact and how they feel. I get asked more than anyone about collabs, and I've never minded giving an answer.

I don't see the need for this one. The forums and cleanups can't and shouldn't be expected to hold someone's hand on everything. If someone doesn't wish to collab, just say so. If someone's not mature enough to handle being told a polite no, they probably shouldn't be participating in the cleanup.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:54:02 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3122: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:53:37 PM

[up][up]Can't it just be added to the reservations page? Like, even just an asterisk next to the people who are willing to collab or something... then people who come to the thread can be pointed to that page.

[up]Well, I agree on that, but I guess what I'm saying is that if you're not one of the people who have felt stuck in a collab they don't want to do, then it's hard to relate to how many people might feel that way and just be keeping quiet, even if it's a small number. This only came up in the first place because someone complained about this very thing. And at the time, everyone agreed that the idea of "having the reserver make the first move" was a good thing.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 12:56:41 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#3123: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:55:04 PM

With War on this, this rule is easy to implement, has pretty much no effect on the people who were open to collaboration anyway, while making sure people don't get pressured into it if they don't want to

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#3124: Oct 22nd 2022 at 9:59:57 PM

Well, I agree on that, but I guess what I'm saying is that if you're not one of the people who have felt stuck in a collab they don't want to do, then it's hard to relate to how many people might feel that way and just be keeping quiet, even if it's a small number. This only came up in the first place because someone complained about this very thing. And at the time, everyone agreed that the idea of "having the reserver make the first move" was a good thing.

There's a point, though, when I think it drifts too far in the opposite direction. A polite request being declined is...just that. If someone is so upset by a polite refusal, they shouldn't be participating.

Do we extend this to people upset their proposals are questioned, too? Likewise, we had people frustrated about that, and some people who made proposals, then refused to give clarity to open questions on potentially disqualifying factors in the past.

Just my opinion, but I think it goes a mite far in the opposite direction. If the group consensus is for it, I'm not going to oppose it, but I also question how and why one might feel pressured by what amounts to nothing more than a polite request.

Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 22nd 2022 at 10:01:10 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#3125: Oct 22nd 2022 at 10:03:22 PM

Look, Jay; as someone who has had people who have been nice enough to share their reservations with me, and vice versa, I'll just say, it never hurts to ask. The worst that can happen is that people can (hopefully politely) decline your offer.

I can see both sides of the argument, but ultimately, it never hurts to ask.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 22nd 2022 at 1:04:13 PM


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