To-do list:
- Clean up examples by removing ones that don't fit the new definition (animals denying that they're animals, and moving ones that do fit it.
The name of Furry Denial implies that it's about an animal denying they're an animal. However, there are also examples about animals (and the narrative) never referring to their animal nature at all, rather than referring to it in the negative. It also gets some Orphaned Etymology examples where animals are referred to as "humans", which might imply the writers forget they're animals. It's also used for different ideas that don't fit any of those categories.
Furry Denial Wick Check is split as such:
- 10/50 examples (20%) involve an animal literally denying that they are an animal.
- 4/50 examples (8%) are animals who are never said to be animals, and for the purposes of the story treated as humans.
- 14/50 examples (28%) are animals being referred to as humans in a way that implies Orphaned Etymology.
- 22/50 examples (44%) are other usage.
Suggesting a disambig.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 2:01:12 PM
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
Paging ~nw09 since pings don't work in opening posts.
Anyway, seconding disambiguation since this can probably be folded into its supertropes, I Would Say If I Could Say and Orphaned Etymology, due to the examples having an identity crisis and the supertropes covering the first and third categories, the second category (which is also the smallest) being defined in the negative (and thus an absence of a trope), and the fourth category (which is the biggest category) having a much worse identity crisis than every other example category.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 8th 2022 at 8:15:33 AM
the Retromancer
It says it's a supertrope, but I have trouble finding relevance of either I Would Say If I Could Say or Orphaned Etymology. I think the trope has own merit, so maybe rename/yard to something like Hes Not A Beast (A character is identified as an "animal" by one party and the other party disagrees) and restrict to dialogue examples only.
Edited by Amonimus on Sep 8th 2022 at 5:02:09 PM
Yeah, I don't see how it's I Would Say If I Could Say. If anything, I'd think this is Insistent Terminology or maybe Implausible Deniability
If anything, I think a lot of those examples would better fit Oblivious to His Own Description.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
&Those might be more fitting tropes than I Would Say If I Could Say, but if I Would Say If I Could Say isn't actually a supertrope as claimed by the description, then that's another bad sign (along with what the wick check turned up). Anyway, I'm assuming Orphaned Etymology is referenced in the case of characters in a World of Funny Animals using human-specific terminology.
As mentioned in the opening post, the name only sounds like it's an animal character denying they're an animal. The actual definition is unclear, so we'd probably have to rewrite this to use that name. (Or alternatively, we could rewrite without renaming.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 8th 2022 at 9:31:03 AM
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
FurryConfusion.Arthur has been counted twice in the wick check (under Orphaned Etymology).
Edited by Nen_desharu on Sep 8th 2022 at 1:40:58 PM
I suspect the reference to I Would Say If I Could Say relates to the opening Example as a Thesis where a Funny Animal uses a common idiom that assumes the speaker to be human. The page image and quote also fall into that category, though of the three only the quote engages in the lampshading of the ill-fittingness of the phrase that I Would Say... seems to require.
Coupled with said Example as a Thesis being the closest the page comes to an actual definition, that could suggest the use of such idioms was intended to actually be the core of the trope, technically making other forms of even active/literal denial misuse, but that seems needlessly specific and the following paragraph does describe how certain human-like actions and associations, not just expressions, fall under the trope.
Courtesy links: Trope Talk thread
, original YKTTW. Note that actions that an actual member of the species wouldn't take are said to fall under the trope from the start.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
the Retromancer
Would someone on "animal"'s behalf denying they're an animal count, like a setting with Talking Animal or like on the trope's image?
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
Tropes Are Flexible, so I'm inclined to say it would count.
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
I always thought this trope was about anthropomorphic animals explicitly referring to themselves as human, rather than denying that they're animals when someone brings it up. The title and description definitely don't match.
I noticed that Furry Reminder is misused as the opposite of this, where some examples just list characters mentioning their species.
Also, gosh FurryConfusion.Arthur is still a mess. It was what inspired me to put the trope in TRS in the first place, but no-one's gotten around to cleaning it up.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
Calling in favor of redefining as an animal literally denying that they are an animal and renaming. What are our name options?
the Retromancer
May need some time to think of it. Anything besides Im Not An Animal comes off as silly in my head.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
Maybe Animal Denial or Beast Denial would work, because I'd rather not have a dialogue-like name due to No New Stock Phrases. Either way, I think replacing "Furry" with "Animal" would be an improvement since the trope wouldn't be limited to Funny Animals and would also include other talking animals, like Civilized Animals.
Edit: Maybe Denying Theyre An Animal or Animal Denying Theyre An Animal would work, even if they're kind of long (or at least the latter is).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 14th 2022 at 7:10:15 AM
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
What's wrong with that page? And why was "feeds rats to lizards" removed?
Edited by nw09 on Sep 14th 2022 at 12:38:29 PM
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
It's full of natter, and I reworded one of the examples because it didn't specify why it was confusing.
Is it still? You removed a lot of that.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
Calling in favor of Denial of Animality. I don't feel like handling the move right now, so I'll turn the new name into a redirect in case someone else is willing to handle it.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
I made Sandbox.Denial Of Animality using a trimmed version of the current description. It might be kind of barebones, but there's probably room for improvement either way.
I think I'll move it in three days if there are no objections.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
I forgot about this thread and thus accidentally delayed updating the description until a post in the meta thread reminded me that it needed to be done, so I went ahead and did it despite previously planning to on the 28th of last month.
Anyway, the on-page examples and wicks should be safe to clean up now.
The world's forgotten boy (he/him)
I took care of the on-page examples, at least to the extent that I could.
he/him
Dumping nw09's wick check here before I cut list it:
The name of Furry Denial implies that it's about an animal denying they're an animal. However, a lot of examples are about animals (and the narrative) never referring to their animal nature at all, rather than referring to it in the negative. It also gets some Orphaned Etymology examples where animals are referred to as "humans", which might imply the writers forget they're animals.
50/50
- Genshin Impact: Mondstadt: At least in one of her lines, she insists that "she's not a cat" when she is catching butterflies, claiming that she is going to need them for her cocktails.
- Legend of the Three Caballeros: Quoting Panchito: "We're not birds. Its not like we can fly".
- MCU: Rocket Raccoon: Even though he ultimately admits to being an Uplifted Animal, he doesn't like when people outright refer to him as such. He gets angry being called a raccoon, possibly because it hits home too hard. In Vol. 2, however, he's initially not so bothered by Peter calling him a "trash panda" (a nickname for raccoons) until Peter admits it's "worse" than being called a raccoon, and when Ego describes him as a "triangle-faced monkey", he almost lets loose a snarky comment but instead decides to see if his face really is triangular. Following his Character Development, when Stark tells him in Endgame that he looked like a Build-a-Bear, Rocket immediately and graciously deflects instead of taking offense.
- Super Smash Bros. - Others: Led by Joker, the Phantom Thieves of Hearts are a group of teenagers (and a magic talking catnote )
- The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: H-9 (Rupert Bear) scolds H-14 (Tiger Tim) for crawling on all fours and lapping up water and is also angered by Mina insisting he and the other hybrids are beasts and therefore don't deserve to be treated with courtesy.
- Garfield: His 9 Lives: In Garfield's introduction to "Space Cat", he states that he likes to think he'll live forever, "but hey, I'm only human." Not sure based on the context, but it seems to be ironic
- Legend of the Three Caballeros S1 E04 "World Tree Caballeros!": When told the Caballeros have to distract Felldrake, who's standing far away atop a planet, Panchito complains that "We are not birds, we cannot fly!"
- The Amazing World of Gumball S2E32 "The Promise": On the bus, Gumball claims no one will give up a seat because of animal instinct, but Darwin insists "People aren't animals". Both of them and a lot of the others literally are animals. Ironically, he is proven wrong by Tobias, who is not an animal but still turns his head/body into a wolf's head for the sake of growling at them.
- Pawapoke Dash: Igumori in Pawapoke Dash insists she's human but has dog ears and her dates all involve playing with her like she's one. Turns out she's really a dog who was run over by a car and then granted another chance at life as a hybrid by the Baseball God. However, it is only temporary unless she's on the winning team of a national-level competition and... there's not enough time. She either dies alone and miserable or at peace depending on whether Power Pro befriends her or not.
- ASDF Movie: The Cow Pretending to Be a Man.
Person: Alan, are you a cow?
Alan: What? No!
Cow Pretending to Be a Man: Yeah, me neither.
- Regular Show Main Characters: J. G. Quintel states that he's "a dude in a bird's body". He doesn't fly or do anything remotely avian.
- The Mighty Boosh: Bollo is treated the same way as every human on the show. This is naturally lampshaded several times:
Saboo: (to Naboo) You live with a couple of dossbags and an ape!(Bollo growls)Saboo: What? You are an ape!Bollo: Oh.
- Kaiketsu Zorori: Seldom do any of the Funny Animal characters acknowledge they are animals, nor do they act like their species.
- Krazy Noodle Massacre: The characters are all strange, unnamed humanoid goat creatures with horns, but no one ever says anything about it.
- Sonic the Animation: Sonic's a hedgehog whose the "Man of the Year". Think about it.
- Memories of Infinite's Past: Despite the cast being Funny Animals, they still call each other "men".
- FurryConfusion.Arthur: In one episode where Pal and Baby Kate are looking for D.W.'s Imaginary Friend, Pal is confused by something Kate does and comments, "I'll never understand humans."
- InsaneTrollLogic.Western Animation: Used in the Goof Troop episode "Bringin' on the Rain". Pete intends to water his yard thoroughly in an attempt to win a gardening contest. PJ objects, because they're in a drought. Pete then claims that since we have oceans and "the human body is 98.6% water", there can't possibly be a drought. PJ is too exhausted to respond with anything other than a resigned "Whatever you say, Dad."
- Furry Confusion.Arthur: In one episode where Pal and Baby Kate are looking for D.W.'s Imaginary Friend, Pal is confused by something Kate does and comments, "I'll never understand humans."
- Green Eggs and Ham (2019): The sapient characters are all Cartoon Creatures who refer to themselves as humans.
- DuckTales (2017) S1 E10 "The Missing Links of Moorshire!": Steelbeak, after getting pounded by Huey, says “that kid's an animal!”, when technically, all characters in this series are animals. This is with a "cheaters/cheetah" joke in this very same episode.
- The Amazing World Of Gumball S 5 E 10 The Loophole: Bobert sets out to destroy "humanity", which is implicitly everyone, even though practically none of the residents shown in Elmore are human and few are the same species or even the same medium.
- Nature of Nature's Art: In-universe and in the supplementary material, "man" and "woman" refer not to humans, but to sentient animals that are male or female. It can be a bit jarring to hear one animal call another animal a man. This practice continues in Solar System, so presumably it's part of the Translation Convention.
- Ozy and Millie: A probably accidental example, Ozy says "Oh, the humanity." In response to something stupid done by a Raccoon.
- Tropes F to I: In the episode The Soul Sever, Lion-O claims that the technology that the Sever is using stripped him of his humanity... despite neither of them being human, not even before Sever's transformation. In fact, there appear to be no humans anywhere on Third Earth, so Lion-O's line is particularly confusing.
- Crawford's Corner: One episode is called "Crawford Washes His Hands", even though he is a cat, and on a cat, they would be his front paws.
- DuckTales (2017): Even though the characters in the show are explicitly non-humans (they refer to their feathers, tails and beaks, they hatch from eggs, etc.), they'll occasionally refer to themselves as "human" and use expressions like "mankind", "human contact" or "anthropology" (which means "the study of humans"). It seems that in this setting, "human" is just a synonym for sentient Funny Animal.
- Made even funnier is in Quack Pack!, the live studio audience that ends up attacking the family are actual humans. However, due to humans not existing in the world of DuckTales (with these humans only existing because Gene the Genie has some fourth-wall knowledge, as Disney genies tend to have), the family is absolutely horrified of them, calling them horrible flesh-faced monsters, indicating that humans aren't even human to them. But in the Duck family's defense, the humans' were indeed pretty terrifying, most with large, unsettling smiles and creepy laughs.
- Pokemon Reset Bloodlines The Main Group: A rare inversion. Having been raised by Dragon-types and as a Dragon Heart bloodliner (meaning that she can understand Dragon-Type Pokémon and learn their moves), she considers herself a Dragon-type born in the wrong body, rather than a human.
- Scooby-Doo: A recurring gag has him exclaim "Rog? Rhere?" whenever someone points out he's a dog. "Where? Where?" is not an example of this
- Wishmere: Doesn't think he's just a dog, but more than a dog. Don't think this counts
- My Little Marriage Mary Is A Mare: Initially Mary, as far as she is concerned, doesn't have a "mane"—it's her hair, dammit.
- Duck Dodgers S 1 E 9: Played for laughs. Once he gets the ring, Dodgers boasts about being the first of his species to fly. . . as a flock of non-anthropomorphic ducks fly behind him.
- Hello Kitty: It has been stated by her creator that Kitty isn't an actual cat, but a little girl... Who looks like a cat. That said, they later clarified she's not a human either. Creator statement
- Funny.Ryan Toys Review: All of "Learn Panda Facts with Combo Panda", with the main joke being Combo Panda being unaware that he's a real panda and declaring that all pandas are like him. Not sure if this is denial, or if he's just unaware
- FurryConfusion.Comic Books: The cover of DC Comics' Funny Stuff #8 (1946) shows J. Rufus Lion looking at a non-anthropomorphic lion in a zoo cage. The caged lion asks Rufus what he's looking at, and Rufus exclaims "Think of that! A talking lion!"
- Furry Confusion.Arthur: Another episode had Arthur and several of his friends watching a parody of their own show, featuring an anthro called "Andy." They snark at it, asking questions like, "If all the characters are animals, does their school cafeteria serve bugs and garbage?" and "If Andy is a mouse and has a pet dog, why doesn't it eat him?" Arthur: "He's not a mouse. He's a... I forget." (Arthur himself is supposedly an aardvark, but looks as much like a mouse as anything else.) Obviously, the producers love Lampshading. Arthur is implied to be an example of Furry Lens, so it may not count
- DuckTales (2017) S1 E10 "The Missing Links of Moorshire!": Webby is excited at the idea of "talking animals wearing clothes", even though technically everyone in the show is one.
- My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S2 E25 "A Canterlot Wedding – Part 1": These obviously aren't real-life ponies, but we're still given this reminder. "Cadance" refers to Pinkie Pie's reception as a "six-year-old's birthday party." Horses, on average, live to be about 25-30 years old, so a six-year-old horse's birthday party would theoretically be more like a human Sweet Sixteen party... a far cry from what Pinkie's throwing. More of a Most Writers Are Human situation.
- Peg + Cat S1E11 "The Birthday Cake Problem": Cat claims to have hands at one point.
- The Amazing World of Gumball S1E26 "The Mustache": Tina tries to make an intimidating fist-punch gesture, but her T-rex arms are too short to reach each other. Furry Reminder
- The Amazing World of Gumball S2E29 "The Game": As the family start realize they can't live with the current dodges and start playing the game again:
Gumball: We need maximum rolls every turn, which means no dodjes, no matter how bad the daars are. Agreed?
(Gumball rolls the dice and picks up a daar card)
Gumball: (looking at card) ... Dodj.
Anais: What happened to taking every daar?
Gumball: Do you really want to see me clean myself with my tongue?
Everyone but Gumball: Ew!
Darwin: Dodj! Dodj! Dodj! - The Amazing World of Gumball S2E25 "The Photo": Gumball tries to use Bobert's laser vision to get a tan, but just gets his fur burnt off and his head set on fire.
- The Nostalgia Critic S 4 E 28: Referenced.
Launchpad: Actually Chief, I don’t think I can flap my arms fast enough.Critic: I mean what do you think I am, a duck?
- A Girl and Her Fed: Speedy.
- Cheap Thrills: The author states that, despite appearances, everyone is technically the same species, and thus no one would have a reason to say they weren't "human".
- During the third and fourth chapters of Cheap Thrills, S. E. would completely redraw select pages of the comic with the characters in human form. At the time, her reasoning for keeping them as furries is because the characters were more endearing that way, especially Jeordie.
- Inverted with the Continuity Reboot as Rigsby, WI. The cast is now entirely in human form, but the author has gone out of her way to continue drawing Frank as his original chihuahua self when presented the opportunity.
- Femmegasm: A reoccurring gag, with Sonic the Hedgehog.
- The LeBrons: At the end of "Lion", Athlete was afraid when he sees Otis hanging out with Biz in the living room.
- Camp Lazlo: Everyone freaks when Lazlo brings a bear into camp, despite the fact that one of the campers is a bear. This is never addressed. Furry Confusion
- Mickey Mouse Clubhouse:
- In another Mickey Mouse Clubhouse episode, Donald is shown swimming like a dog or human as opposed to like a duck.
- Goofy is explicitly referred to as a dog by Willie, but no explanation or even reaction is given for the fact that Pluto is, too.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to redefine Furry Denial as an animal denying they're an animal and rename it. What should the trope's new name be?
To-do list:
The name of Furry Denial implies that it's about an animal denying they're an animal. However, there are also examples about animals (and the narrative) never referring to their animal nature at all, rather than referring to it in the negative. It also gets some Orphaned Etymology examples where animals are referred to as "humans", which might imply the writers forget they're animals. It's also used for different ideas that don't fit any of those categories.
Furry Denial Wick Check is split as such:
Suggesting a disambig.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 1st 2022 at 2:01:12 PM