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GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#1: Sep 3rd 2022 at 11:25:21 PM

To-do list:

    Original post 
Note: This thread was proposed by The Mayor Of Simpleton, who gave others permission to make the thread.

The problem: Bilingual Animal is a trope about an animal being able to talk to both humans and animals. The description isn't very clear about what that entails—seeming to include both "animals can both speak human language and make animal sounds", and "animals can talk to both humans and animals". A Trope Talk thread indicated there were problems, and Fighteer made one comment in particular that indicated some of the problems here:

The description for the trope could use trimming down, but it seems to include both of the highlighted cases:

  • An animal speaks a human language and produces "natural" sounds for its species.
  • An animal speaks a human language and also speaks an "animal language" that is understandable to animals but not to humans.

Is the former really tropable? We already have Talking Animal as a trope and it includes by implication animals being able to converse with humans as well as use natural sounds. Weirdly, Talking Animal does not reference Bilingual Animal. Someone forgot to do their cross-referencing.

It was further noted that Furry Reminder covers the first category as well.

I and Yindee did a wick check to see what kinds of use this trope got.

The wick check: Link here, but here's the quick results:

  • 5/48 examples, or 10.42%, were examples where an animal can have a conversation with both humans and animals
  • 29/48 examples, or 60.41%, were examples where animals can both talk human language and make animal sounds
  • 1/48 examples, or 2.08%, where when an animal can't speak a human language but knows how to write
  • 2/48 examples, or 4.17%, were of other use
  • 2/48 examples, or 4.17%, were ZCEs, unclear, and other, and
  • 4/48 examples, or 8.33%, were unclassifiable

The wick analysis: So most of the examples were of the category that is already covered by Furry Reminder. Not many that are covered by Talking Animal interestingly, although I still think/agree with Fighteer that conceptually Bilingual Animal and Talking Animal have overlap. This indicates that the issue isn't so much the definition as much as it is overlap with other tropes. I still listed this as Needs Help anyway though as the definition is still an issue.

Solutions?: Given the conceptual problems here, I propose disambiguating Bilingual Animal, with Talking Animal and Furry Reminder being included in the disambig. I don't believe this concept can stand on its own, as the two mentioned tropes already cover it, and the definition is kind of unclear anyway.

What does everyone else think? Any other ideas on how to fix/save this trope?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 9th 2022 at 7:13:06 AM

You can't always get what you want.
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#3: Sep 3rd 2022 at 11:37:37 PM

I'm not a big fan of disambiguating and would rather remove the first category from scope, which causes the most problem, and move cases of "animal sounds" to Furry Reminder. Not completely against disambig either.

I feel like a character who can do both Talking Animal and Animal Talk (Speaks Fluent Animal) is enough for own trope, especially if they're the only animal in the setting who can do that. The low example count is bothering though.

Edited by Amonimus on Sep 3rd 2022 at 9:46:00 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#5: Sep 4th 2022 at 5:11:42 AM

Yeah I was at a bit of a loss as to what to do here when I wrote this. [tup] to Amonimus's solution.

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Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#6: Sep 4th 2022 at 6:35:31 AM

I'm good with simply knocking out the animal sounds category and sending such instances to Furry Reminder.

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GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#7: Sep 6th 2022 at 6:14:46 PM

I'll hook a crowner soon, and these are the options I have planned:

I'm in favor of the first, but since the second was proposed, I still intend to include it.

You can't always get what you want.
GastonRabbit MOD Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#8: Sep 6th 2022 at 10:28:44 PM

I hooked a crowner. I downvoted disambiguating while upvoting removing the parts of the definition that are redundant with Furry Reminder, and really only included the disambiguation option for the sake of including both options that came up.

You can't always get what you want.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#9: Sep 6th 2022 at 11:10:47 PM

[tup]Readjusting (if that's the right way to describe it) the trope, [tdown] to disambiguating it.

GastonRabbit MOD Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#10: Sep 9th 2022 at 2:39:32 AM

Calling in favor of the following:

We'll need to update the description to account for the definition changes.

You can't always get what you want.
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
AmourLeFou You'll never find out who I am from Colorado Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
You'll never find out who I am
#13: Sep 9th 2022 at 10:48:10 AM

We should also remove all Translation Convention examples since they can easily be perceived as "There's a curse that prevents humans from being able to hear animals speak human languages". So the character doesn't come off as bilingual, they're just the one animal character who isn't affected by the curse.

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#14: Sep 9th 2022 at 10:56:00 AM

Uh... I agree we should remove the Translation Convention examples but for a different reason. It's not some "curse", the animals all still speak animal, the point is that it's translated for the audience's benefit. If anything it should be removed since it has nothing to do with this trope.

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AmourLeFou You'll never find out who I am from Colorado Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
You'll never find out who I am
#15: Sep 9th 2022 at 11:15:36 AM

[up] I'm talking about examples like this:

  • Mostly subverted in Dolittle. It seems like this trope is in play, as many of the animals have human voice actors; they speak English and can communicate fluently both with each other and with the eponymous doctor. As the film progresses, however, it becomes clear that most of them are actually not speaking any human language. Instead, the doctor (and eventually, his apprentice) can speak in animal tongues, and the English speech is merely the movie translating for the audience. The lone exception is Polynesia, the parrot, who plays the trope completely straight; Poly does speak English, and makes a point of explaining that she speaks and understands the language much better than any other parrot.
  • The titular character of Underdog gains the ability to talk to humans, but he doesn't lose the ability to talk to other dogs.

With animals, Translation Convention is meant to be taken in a literal sense. In the book Charlotte's Web it is explicitly stated that Fern hears the animals speaking English. In Brother Bear Kenai looks confused when Tanana said "I don't speak Bear!" like he's thinking "Huh? I'm not speaking Bear, I'm speaking English!" In The Princess and the Frog, Tiana is shocked when the dog talks to her. You wouldn't be shocked if you suddenly had the ability to understand animal noises — you would be shocked if you started hearing animals speak human languages. Also in Dr. Dolittle an owl says "You're the one who can hear us, aren't you?" instead of "You're the one who understands us, aren't you?" and in Detective Pikachu Tim is saying "You can hear him right?" and not "You can understand him, right?"

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#16: Sep 9th 2022 at 11:18:54 AM

...Listen I'm not here to get into a debate with you about the definition of Translation Convention but what I'll tell you is that that is not translation convention. That is animals speaking English, not animals being translated for the audience. I'm not having this debate, I have other work to do, but read the trope's description because you're objectively wrong here.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
AmourLeFou You'll never find out who I am from Colorado Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
You'll never find out who I am
#17: Sep 9th 2022 at 11:38:51 AM

Anyway, my point was we should remove examples like the Dolittle and Underdog examples because it can easily be seen as Dr. Dolittle is the only human who can hear the animals speak English, but everyone can hear Polly speak English, so it's not that she's bilingual it's just she isn't affected by the curse that prevents normal humans from being able to hear animals speak English. Same with Underdog.

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Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#18: Sep 18th 2022 at 2:11:42 AM

Went through wicks and on-page examples, if anyone wants to double check. The last thing needed is to alter the description to remove the "animal noises" category. I'm not confident with those types of changes, so I didn't do anything.

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Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#19: Sep 18th 2022 at 10:59:32 AM

Okay so here's my attempt at reworking the description:

    Description with edit markup 
In real life, animals have languages but they obviously don't speak English or any human language.note  Nevertheless, fictional animals are often shown as being able to speak to humans. However, there may be times when an animal character, who has previously been established as having the ability to speak to humans, is also shown making the "natural" sound for its species speaking to other animals. This trope makes it clear to the audience that the animal really is speaking English and it's not just realistic animal noises being translated into English. If not, it's human speech being translated into English.

It's also a good source of comedy. If the animal is hiding its ability to speak a human language from the humans (which they'll often do until they're caught or otherwise forced to stop pretending), expect a gag of it communicating with the human, then backing it up by adding, "I mean [animal sound]". A similar gag is for the animal to be making animal sounds and then suddenly communicate with humans to their surprise. The animal will usually then be offended at the humans not realising it could speak their language.

Sometimes, the animal makes its sound in the middle or end of its sentences, kind of like a Verbal Tic (if they do this and also have a voice reminiscent of an animal sound, they're either a Speech-Impaired Animal or have an Animal Species Accent). Sometimes, the animal mostly talks but involuntarily makes their sound when startled.

One gag involving the Bilingual Animal is a variation on Baby's First Words where a baby animal either learns to communicate with humans after exclusively making its sound using Animal Talk or learns to make its sound the animal language when previously it could only communicate with humans.

Bilingual Animals can also serve as interpreters between humans and animals and a Silly Animal Sound might be treated as them speaking a "foreign language". In some cases, the animal can't speak a human language but knows how to write, like Snoopy in Peanuts or Charlotte in Charlotte's Web.

If a Funny Animal or Beast Man is like this, making the sound could serve as a Furry Reminder. See also Animal Talk, Talking Animal, Civilised Animal. Very common in cases of Polly Wants a Microphone because parrots in fiction often squawk at the beginning and/or end of a sentence, Cock-a-Doodle Dawn where roosters prepare to crow at dawn, and Cat Concerto where speaking is seen as communication and meowing is used as singing.

If an animal makes its "natural" sounds instead, that's a Furry Reminder. Compare Speaks Fluent Animal for when a human can speak both human and animal languages.

    Reworked description without markup 
In real life, animals have languages but they obviously don't speak English or any human language.note  Nevertheless, fictional animals are often shown as being able to speak to humans. However, there may be times when an animal character, who has previously been established as having the ability to speak to humans, is also shown speaking to other animals. This trope makes it clear to the audience that the animal really is speaking English and it's not just realistic animal noises being translated into English. If not, it's human speech being translated into English.

One gag involving the Bilingual Animal is a variation on Baby's First Words where a baby animal either learns to communicate with humans after exclusively using Animal Talk or learns the animal language when previously it could only communicate with humans.

Bilingual Animals can also serve as interpreters between humans and animals and a Silly Animal Sound might be treated as them speaking a "foreign language". In some cases, the animal can't speak a human language but knows how to write, like Snoopy in Peanuts or Charlotte in Charlotte's Web.

If an animal makes its "natural" sounds instead, that's a Furry Reminder. Compare Speaks Fluent Animal for when a human can speak both human and animal languages.

Edited by Hello83433 on Sep 18th 2022 at 2:00:41 PM

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AmourLeFou You'll never find out who I am from Colorado Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
You'll never find out who I am
#20: Sep 18th 2022 at 4:04:51 PM

[up] So we're limiting this to "animals hear each other speaking a human language while humans hear them making animal noises, but one animal can either talk to humans or type/write" examples? Fine, but since Charlotte is a spider, it's likely that the normal humans don't hear anything when Fern and the animals hear Charlotte speaking English. The humans in Peanuts obviously don't hear anything when the dogs hear each other speaking English since it's Thought Bubble Speech.

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MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#21: Sep 20th 2022 at 1:24:23 AM

I haven't really been following this thread but the revised description looks good to me.

Macron's notes
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#22: Sep 25th 2022 at 8:08:38 PM

I swapped in the description rewrite. Now examples have to be cleaned up.

You can't always get what you want.
GastonRabbit Cake's just a shot away. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Cake's just a shot away. (he/him)
#23: Sep 25th 2022 at 8:16:08 PM

Didn't take long, so archiving the wick check and locking up:

Here a wick check will be performed for Bilingual Animal.

Why? This trope has been noted as having an unclear definition. Namely, as noted by Amonimus, there are two different interpretations of this trope's scope—"Animals can have a conversation with both humans and animals", and "Animals can both talk human language and make animal sounds". Also noted was a unilaterally added "animal can't speak a human language but knows how to write" category. This wick check will hopefully figure out what to do with this trope.

Wicks checked: 48/48

Wick totals:

  • 5/48 examples, or 10.42%, were examples where an animal can have a conversation with both humans and animals
  • 29/48 examples, or 60.41%, were examples where animals can both talk human language and make animal sounds
  • 1/48 examples, or 2.08%, where when an animal can't speak a human language but knows how to write
  • 2/48 examples, or 4.17%, were of other use
  • 2/48 examples, or 4.17%, were ZCEs, unclear, and other, and
  • 4/48 examples, or 8.33%, were unclassifiable


    open/close all folders 

    Animals can have a conversation with both humans and animals (5/48) 
  1. Anime.Pokemon The Series: Meowth of Team Rocket can speak to both humans and Pokémon, making him useful for relaying information to the characters and audience.
  2. Literature.Discworld: Recurring character Gaspode the Wonder Dog learned to speak Morporkian (i.e. English) via magic, but has no trouble speaking to other dogs, or even wolves. On several occasions, he acts as a cross-species translator.
  3. Literature.Garfields Judgement Day: This book reveals that all of the neighborhood animals can speak human, but have always chosen not to due to a "rule". They consider breaking the rule to warn their owners about the impending disaster.
  4. Webcomic.Sandra And Woo: Woo the raccoon and his kits is uniquely capable of talking to both humans and animals.
  5. WesternAnimation.Thunder Cats 1985: Depends on where you think he falls as far as an "animal," but Snarfnote  had animal linguistics as a power. It actually came in very useful for a tailor-made episode where the other Thundercats got kidnapped by the villains and Snarf had to use various animals to mount a rescue for them.

    Animals can both talk human language and make animal sounds (29/48) 
  1. Advertising.Claude The Cat: Claude mainly talks, but in one PSA, he's heard screaming, "Reoww!" (the same sound effect used in That Poor Cat) upon accidentally burning himself.
  2. Aladdin.Tropes A To D: Iago the parrot can actually speak instead of just copying people, but he keeps it a secret from all but Jafar, his evil owner, so when other people are present, he squawks and copies people.
  3. Anime.Yokai Watch: As a cat Yo-kai, Jibanyan can speak human language, but also has the Verbal Tic "Nyan", which he adds at the end of his sentences. However, when he was a normal cat before he died, he could only meow.
  4. Characters.Little Bear: She can quack as well as speak.
  5. Characters.The Sprout Sharing Show: Can speak, but her dialogue is often peppered with snorts.
  6. ComicBook.Condorito: There's a joke where Washington (Condorito's pet dog) goes to an office for a job. The employer can't believe that an animal requests a human job, but Washington does every task made in the office, surprising the employer. Finally, when he sees his CV and asks if he's bilingual, Washington answers with a "meow meow."
  7. Fanfic.Sucked Into The Smash Universe: Venom tends to squawk like a bird when he's surprised or hit. Makes sense as he's a Black Vulture.
  8. Film.The Great Muppet Caper: Rowlf barks at some guard dogs and says, "It pays to know a second language."
  9. Literature.A Lion In The Meadow: The lion mostly speaks, but can be heard roaring at the beginning.
  10. Literature.Black Beauty: Horses mainly talk, but they whinny when surprised.
  11. Literature.Elephant And Piggie: "Happy Pig Day" reveals that Piggie can oink as well as speaking.
  12. MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic.Tropes A To B: The ponies mainly speak, but occasionally whinny. For instance, Rainbow Dash whinnies in her sleep in "Sleepless in Ponyville".
  13. Neopets.Tropes A To E:
  14. Series.Bumble: Bumble the Bee talks but often says "Zzz". This is actually Artistic License – Biology; bees buzzing is not a vocalization but rather the noise of their wings beating together.
  15. Series.The Muppets 2015: Miss Piggy usually talks, but in "A Tail of Two Pigs", she accidentally snorts out of anger.
  16. SesameStreet.Tropes A To C:
    • Chip and Dip can both speak and meow.
    • One "Elmo's World" skit features a tiger who can talk and once demonstrates his roar. His housecat friend, however, can only meow.
    • One cartoon skit is about a talking dog trying to meow but he can only bark. In another, a talking cat tries to bark, but he can only meow.
    • The Bear family mainly talks, but they can also growl. One episode is about Baby Bear accepting that his baby sister Curly has a louder growl than him.
  17. WesternAnimation.Daniel Tigers Neighborhood: The animals can speak and sometimes put their sounds in the middle of their sentences, especially Katerina Kittycat.
  18. WesternAnimation.Globehunters An Around The World In Eighty Days Adventure: Trevor the parrot who, not only squawks and mimics humans, but is capable of human speech and understanding humans. In one scene, it's shown that he can speak to them if he so chooses. Near the end, he fluently talks to the Hunter.
  19. WesternAnimation.Infinity Train: The series has multiple examples. Most prominently Atticus in Book 1, a dog who can speak eloquent human language, but also sings a ballad in one episode that consists entirely of howling.
  20. WesternAnimation.Lady And The Tramp: Dogs can both talk and bark, and cats can both talk and meow. For example, the first sentence of "We are Siamese" goes: "We are Siamese if you please, meow". They also understand human speech, though humans can't understand them.
  21. WesternAnimation.Martha Speaks: Martha gains the ability to talk from eating alphabet soup. She can still bark while able to talk, but if she tries to talk after going a day without soup, she can only bark.
  22. WesternAnimation.One Hundred And One Dalmatians: Dogs can both speak and bark. In fact, in one scene, the Colonel has to translate a distant dog's barking into English so that the cat and horse he's talking to will understand.
  23. WesternAnimation.Peg Plus Cat: The Pig hardly ever speaks— he mainly either snorts or sings.
  24. WesternAnimation.Peppa Pig: The animals can both talk and make their sounds. Daddy Pig's loud snort is a Running Gag.
  25. WesternAnimation.Puppy Dog Pals: Most animals can speak as well as make their natural sounds.
  26. WesternAnimation.Puppy In My Pocket Adventures In Pocketville: Most Pocketville denizens are able to both speak and make their respective animal noises.
  27. WesternAnimation.Shrek 2: When Donkey becomes a horse, he can still talk, but he can also whinny.
  28. WesternAnimation.The Aristocats: The cats' meows are separate from their speech, as evidenced when Marie tells her brothers to start meowing. Interestingly, this is somewhat verified in real-life; meows are mostly used by cats to get the attention of humans, while using a variety of different sounds like chirps and squeaks to communicate with other cats.
  29. Western Animation.Up: The dogs wear collars that enable them to talk, but it doesn't stop them from being able to bark.
    Carl Fredricksen: "And on your way, learn how to bark like a real dog!"
    Doug: "I can bark. *woof woof* And here's howling. *Awoo*!"

    Animal can't speak a human language but knows how to write (1/48) 
  1. ComicStrip.Peanuts: The strip has Snoopy, who can type and bark.

    Other use (2/48) 
  1. Characters.Padak: Padak claims to speak a few different sea animals' languages, from octopus to jellyfish. multilingual, human's just not one of the languages
  2. Literature.Charlie And Lola: Discussed in the book "We Honestly Can Look After Your Dog", where the four-year-old girls Lola and Lotta claim that Sizzles (the titular dog) can speak English as well as some other talents, but he's never heard speaking English so they're probably just spinning yarns. Not an example as the animals don't actually do it, and it doesn't seem to be much of a discussed example either—that would imply the trope itself is being discussed.

    ZCEs, unclear, and other (2/48) 
  1. Fanfic.Way Of The Aura: Played with. Luka uses telepathy to better communicate with humans and acts as a translator for other Pokémon. Unclear as to if this indicates animal/Pokemon sounds.
  2. WesternAnimation.Open Season: Deni mainly quacks, but occasionally says a word in English. However, most animals just speak in translated animal noises. Counts as both of the first two categories.

    Unclassifiable (4/48) 
  1. Main.Animal Talk: See also Bilingual Animal, which can perfectly communicate with humans and animals alike. See also pothole, unclassifiable.
  2. Main.Animal Tropes: An animal that both makes its sound and talks. 'Index
  3. Main.Language Tropes: An animal that both speaks and makes its noises. Index
  4. Pantheon.Death Archetypes: Padak: Portfolio: Bilingual Animal Pantheon

You can't always get what you want.
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Trope Repair Shop: Bilingual Animal
6th Sep '22 10:26:36 PM

Crown Description:

Bilingual Animal has two types of examples, and concerns were raised that one of them ("An animal speaks a human language and produces 'natural' sounds for its species") is redundant with Furry Reminder. Both disambiguating and keeping the trope with the "Character who can do both Talking Animal and Animal Talk (Speaks Fluent Animal)" part of the definition were suggested. What should be done with the trope?

Total posts: 23
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