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Vindicated by History cleanup thread

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While not attracting as much misuse as Condemned by History, Vindicated by History can still be misused in that:

1. It can be used to gush excessively about works that never made a splash and never really gained traction afterwards and otherwise over-exaggerate its achievements (like the Wii U entry, the ATT thread I started about it inspiring me to start this thread)

2. It can be used to say "You know, this thing that was hated then and still hated today wasn't really that bad!"

3. It developed a small fanbase but not one big or influential enough that it redeemed the work in the public's eyes

5. Someone says "X is becoming this trope". That's not how it works. Either it was vindicated or it's not. If it's "becoming" this trope, wait until it does before adding.

6. It is confused with Popularity Polynomial

7. It violates the 5-year waiting period

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 23rd 2022 at 1:58:21 PM

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#426: Nov 11th 2024 at 10:52:23 AM

Skyward Sword has a Vindicated by History (game recieved perfect scores from the majority of publications so it doesn't count). Should I move it to Popularity Polynomial (since people did go back and re-evaluate it after the remaster), or does it not count even for that because I've heard people mention offhand that the game is now more divisive than ever.

Once Upon A Time.
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#427: Nov 11th 2024 at 10:55:52 AM

[up][up] I dont know, NO ONE here said anything.

But if you want to know the consensus for 4kids outside of TV Tropes, it is that their dubs, bad or not, were beloved by the kids who watched them, and once they grew up and joined the internet, they gushed about the music, the dubs that people thought everyone loathed, the fact they were the last Saturday Morning cartoon block, and the fact that some of their more infamous decisions were forced upon them by Toei with One Piece.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
SpaceKABOOM Since: Jul, 2016
#428: Nov 11th 2024 at 4:28:25 PM

[up][up]I think it can count for Popularity Polynomial since new Zelda fans have always had oscillating appreciation for past games, especially now that open-world games are also on the table.

Speaking of, the Zelda games on VindicatedByHistory.Video Games should be cleaned up similarly. I know Wind Waker has been defended on this site, on this thread too, but the game has never been a failure. It should go to Popularity Polynomial

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#429: Nov 11th 2024 at 6:07:18 PM

The hate for 4Kids has died down and there is more acknowledgement of their good dubs, but I don't get the impression they are all that liked, especially as their target audience has now outgrown them. The One Piece dub is still hated, and their intrusive localisations ("jelly doughnuts") are often mocked. And it's now known that they had been defrauding their business partners. Not really vindicated, just less intensely disliked.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#430: Nov 11th 2024 at 6:35:30 PM

There are many youtubers who have come forward and that despite being adults still love 4kids, especially their music, even their more controversial Non One Piece dubs like Mew Mew Power have nostalgia going for them.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Remulus (Troper in training)
#431: Nov 13th 2024 at 3:52:08 PM

[up] 4kids as a whole hasn't been vindicated. Maybe individual dubs have been, but for the most part they're known as the face of Macekre. Remember that this site isn't USA exclusive either, and for people outside that country, 4kids remains a highly controversial company that aided censorship in products that would otherwise have released without it (now, whether or not that's true is a different discussion).

Edited by Remulus on Nov 13th 2024 at 3:53:14 AM

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#432: Nov 26th 2024 at 5:40:43 PM

[up] Well, someone went ahead and removed the entry. That would be that...

...Buuuuuut. I have to point out, yes, 4kids did provide the basis for several dubs like Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh outside the USA and that fans do resent the censorship and most people agree the dubs are bad. But you are missing that while TV Tropes does avoid USA centrism, only the opinion of the domestic fandom counts unless it is an specific trope that tropes international reactions like Germans Love David Hasselhoff and Americans Hate Tingle. That's why some famous Scrappies dont count, because they are Americans Hate Tingle examples, they are hated by a fandom and do not count as Scrappies. And the domestic fandom is the USA.

Not to mention 4kids also didnt always provide the dub, Latin America got Shaman King uncut with Zero 4kids bullshit. And One Piece has long been redubbed in almost every single territory that used the 4kids dub as basis.

Edited by AegisP on Nov 26th 2024 at 5:41:38 AM

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#433: Nov 26th 2024 at 8:21:24 PM

From YMMV.Groundhog Day:

  • Vindicated by History: While well-liked by both critics and audiences when it was released (it received generally positive if not glowing reviews and was profitable), the general consensus at first was that it was merely a solid comedy, not an all-time classic. In the decades since it is has come to be regarded as a landmark film of the 1990s and a pinnacle in the careers of Harold Ramis and Bill Murray, and it now regularly shows up on lists of the greatest comedies and greatest films of all time.

The example itself admits the film was always well liked.

CanuckMcDuck1 PEPSIMAN from Japan Since: Sep, 2023 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
PEPSIMAN
#434: Nov 26th 2024 at 8:26:53 PM

[up]That entry could easily be cut. VBH is a near-complete 180 on a work’s reception, not something going from "liked" to "loved".

Do not mess with creatures which you do not understand.
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#435: Nov 26th 2024 at 8:48:37 PM

It made more than three times its budget, was well liked by audiences, and won a BAFTA.

Cut.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#436: Nov 27th 2024 at 2:03:03 PM

From YMMV.Back To The Future Part II:

  • Vindicated by History: The film has the lowest Rotten Tomatoes score of the trilogy, and was highly polarizing back in the day (especially given its Cliffhanger ending immediately followed by the trailer for Part III). However, it has gradually become more popular over time, with more and more people regarding it as a great sequel. Once 2015 actually arrived, the film gained even greater appreciation by audiences. October 21, 2015 was celebrated as "Back to the Future Day", with all kinds of special events.

The film's reception was only mixed at worst, and it still has a Contested Sequel entry.

CanuckMcDuck1 PEPSIMAN from Japan Since: Sep, 2023 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
PEPSIMAN
#437: Nov 27th 2024 at 4:08:04 PM

[up]Once again, going from "good" to "amazing" is not what VBH. There were probably complaints about BTTF’s ending, but it was certainly not "polarizing" given how it was a sequel to a beloved blockbuster that did just as well as it. That entry can be cut because it’s a shoehorn of an example.

Do not mess with creatures which you do not understand.
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#438: Nov 27th 2024 at 4:14:38 PM

From YMMV.Return Of The Jedi:

  • Vindicated by History:
    • After the nearly universal backlash against Jar Jar Binks in the Prequel Trilogy, many fans have looked more favorably upon the Ewoks. They at least contribute more to the plot and meaningfully help the heroes in taking down the shield generator.
    • The movie itself also is more widely appreciated than it was at the time of its release. This is largely due to it being more of an Audience-Alienating Ending when it was truly an ending, whereas once the Prequel Trilogy and Sequel Trilogy were released and proved far more divisive, people looked on Return of the Jedi more fondly in comparison, viewing it as an imperfect but worthy conclusion to the Original Trilogy.

The film was still well liked upon release, so the second bullet point is probably misuse. As for the first, can singular aspects qualify?

CanuckMcDuck1 PEPSIMAN from Japan Since: Sep, 2023 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
PEPSIMAN
#439: Nov 27th 2024 at 4:18:30 PM

[up]The first example could become Character Perception Evolution (assuming it applies to groups), but both examples follow the logic of "worse thing came out, so now this work is automatically better". Being not as good as A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back isn’t much of an insult considering those two movies are considered some of the greatest movies ever. The second bullet could be cut.

Do not mess with creatures which you do not understand.
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#440: Nov 27th 2024 at 5:11:44 PM

Also, lots of people unironically liked the Ewoks from the start. Lots of other people didnt, but there's not a big enough swing to make it VBH.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#441: Nov 27th 2024 at 6:58:32 PM

From YMMV.The Adventures Of Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius:

As mentioned in the example, it was still popular with a lot of people when it was airing and it got a lot of special events and spin off material.

Edited by costanton11 on Nov 27th 2024 at 8:59:15 AM

UchuuFlamenco Since: Jul, 2017
#443: Nov 27th 2024 at 7:41:16 PM

[up][up]Cut. Also the whole bit about that fan animation feels like Fan Myopia.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#444: Nov 28th 2024 at 6:58:26 AM

From YMMV.Doctor Strange 2016:

  • Vindicated by History: The film wasn't considered bad by any means during it's initial release, but the general consensus was that while it did include some breathtaking special effects, it was mediocre story with a forgettable villain. After the extremely divisive reception of its sequel however, many have looked back on this film in a much more favorable light. With a lot viewers appreciating this film's more quiet and introspective tone, especially in the first half and the script being a lot tighter and more focused. Some now even consider it to be one of the best MCU origin stories.

Another example where it was initially regarded as OK at worst.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#446: Nov 28th 2024 at 8:43:34 AM

I mean, I'm not sure people thought Dormammu was forgettable, at least not thanks to the meme that was made out of the ending.

It was one of my favorite Marvel movies in general but that's just me, haha

Point is, yeah cut

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 28th 2024 at 11:43:46 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#447: Nov 28th 2024 at 11:02:17 AM

I'm unsure about this example from YMMV.My Cousin Vinny:

  • Vindicated by History: Marisa Tomei's Oscar win was rather controversial for years, but the reception has improved as time's gone by, with her performance unquestionably being the most iconic of that year's nominees. In particular, the rumour, instigated by film critic Rex Reed, was that Jack Palance had messed up and had simply read out the last name on the teleprompter, accidentally awarding the Oscar to Marisa Tomei. This was denied by the Academy, but the mixup at the 89th Academy Awards in 2017, when La La Land was mistakenly announced as Best Picture instead of Moonlight, goes to show what would have happened if Palance had indeed made a mistake: they would have interrupted the ceremony and given it to the right person. Marisa Tomei was the right person.

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#448: Nov 28th 2024 at 11:38:11 AM

[up] I'm going to go on the side that it doesn't count due to the fact that as divisive as her Oscar win was, she still won an Oscar for it, decided by members of the Academy, in turn many prestigious creators within Hollywood. Her performance was always well-regarded as good, people just made a stink about it because it wasn't seen as "that good", which isn't a good enough starting point for VBH.

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#449: Nov 28th 2024 at 11:42:33 AM

I can think of a few movies that got plenty of heat for winning an Oscar because people didn't think it was good enough to deserve it. But obviously winning an award like that means that people never found it terrible, more that people are harsher on Oscar winners if they don't think it's worth the hype. But unless people already disliked it before the Oscar win...

So yeah that doesn't sound correct.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 28th 2024 at 2:43:19 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#450: Nov 28th 2024 at 11:52:25 AM

I feel like a lot of the backlash to Marisa Tomei's win had less to do with her performance being bad and more to do with My Cousin Vinny not being the kind of film that usually win Oscars.


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