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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#301: Oct 26th 2022 at 4:48:24 PM

Huh. It never occurred to me before that Saw Gerrera would have a severe problem with working alongside Separatists, but it makes perfect sense in retrospect. He has no reason not to see Separatists as just another oppressor.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 26th 2022 at 4:51:52 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#302: Oct 26th 2022 at 4:49:32 PM

The fact that Perrin and Mon Mothma got married at 15 certainly casts a different light on their relationship and of course Mon Mothma was elected a senator at 16, ah, Star Wars, never change.

I do think we're going to get some sort of twist from Perrin, Leida, or both, given their constant presence, but almost total lack of humanization.

My totally wild guess is that they've noticed she's keeping things from them and believe she's planning something they wouldn't approve of (marriage of Lieda to someone for political advantage?) so just up and vanish without any massive melodrama or murders or becoming Imperial agents or anything.

I really enjoyed the scene with Saw and that little discussion of everyone's political leanings and how it makes it impossible for them to come together. Really felt for Luthen there as he's trying desperately to get two factions which clearly don't like each other to focus on the common goal and it just doesn't work. And it also emphasizes why a diplomat/politician, not a spy or general ends up in charge of the Rebel Alliance.

The Imperial Prison got real dark, real fast. I sort of hope we get a scene where Cassian tries to spell out all the stuff we're seeing, about the Imperials dividing them against one another and everyone else just goes 'yeah, duh, we're not all just idiots waiting around for you to explain stuff to us.' Given the hand signals, I think we may see Cassian stumbling into a plot, rather than leading one, which I'll enjoy.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#303: Oct 26th 2022 at 4:51:57 PM

I love the depiction of the prison, especially the description of it as a tamer, cleaner and less brutal than other prisons. It is indeed focused on being efficient, clean, orderly ... in a way that somehow makes it even more dehumanizing, not less. Very much a clean, well lighted place.

The cleanliness, especially. The way the prisoners casually note that their private areas are cleaned daily without their consent, and the implication that the dead prisoners are cleaned out as efficiently as the rest of the dirt, makes the cleanliness downright oppressive. It's not there to make them feel better. It's there to emphasize how efficiently the Empire removes problems.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 26th 2022 at 4:55:30 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#304: Oct 26th 2022 at 5:15:45 PM

Hah. I just realized. Cassian's arrest came due to increased crackdowns because of the robbery he helped commit.

So he's technically in jail because of his own actions.

Also funny that Luthen is looking to silence Cassian, but has no idea where he is because Cassian was smart enough to use a fake name, but got arrested for no reason.

Like, I have no clue how the Rebels will find him, or if they'll even bother with trying to assassinate him since he's in prison and can't really talk anymore.

One Strip! One Strip!
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#305: Oct 26th 2022 at 5:25:03 PM

[up]Except that he definitely can, talking to get leniency, or a reduced sentence would be a greater concern in a less absolutely evil regime, but is still possible. And it's always a risk that the Empire will figure out who they've got.

Edited by ECD on Oct 26th 2022 at 6:48:07 AM

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#306: Oct 26th 2022 at 5:56:42 PM

That prison doesn't seem like the place most concerned with interrogating people for what they know to begin with.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#307: Oct 26th 2022 at 6:09:36 PM

Cassian, of course, is smart enough to know that the Empire would just treat him worse if they knew what he was.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#308: Oct 26th 2022 at 6:16:58 PM

My first thought was how difficult it is for the ISB to find him. He's in Imperial custody but his records all say "Keef Girgo" and the Imperials running the prison are completely unconcerned with verifying that identity. Dedra's trying to look for people he might have been in contact with but in truth her target is buried under the Empire's own prison system.

Unless there's any sort of facial comparison software in the Star Wars universe. I have no idea if there is.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#309: Oct 26th 2022 at 6:19:41 PM

Luthen assumes Cassian is the kind of coward who would fink on him to save his own skin. He's not. From what we've seen of Cassian so far, he's the kind of coward who knows that if you're in a position to fink, you're already in too deep, and instead wants to be as far away as possible from any of it.

I like how hypocritical Luthen is in general in this episode. He talks a big game about how all the different Rebels groups must work together, but he has little interest in making the same allowances in his own personal business. He wants the Rebels to work together and let go of their reservations towards others, but the way he keeps all his different agents at a distance, disdains the idea of being known by anyone he doesn't control to the point of killing off prior allies, and mostly tries to control rather than worth with other rebels makes it clear he doesn't practice what he preaches.

It's a fun counter, because we know from future stories that Mon will ultimately unify the Rebellion - where Luthen is so far failing - by being very opposite to that.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 26th 2022 at 6:22:45 AM

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#310: Oct 26th 2022 at 6:52:03 PM

[up]Eh, I mean, Cassian basically doesn't get a chance to fink, so it's hard to know what he'd do in those circumstances.

More broadly, I certainly agree that Luthen is the wrong man to unite a rebellion, which I think he mostly knows, but at the same time, Mon Mothma is the wrong person to actually fight a rebellion, so they pretty clearly need each other. Which is a nice bit of throughline from Rogue One to Andor (or backwards? Depending on how we look at order). Where, yes, Cassian learns to be more hopeful, but it still takes him and his band of ruthless murderers to (1) Force Jyn to actually act; and (2) allow her to succeed.

ETA: Interestingly, this is also a place where the Empire shoots themselves in the foot. A total lack of due process and rule of law means that Cassian is never given a chance to flip and couldn't trust them not to take his info, then cut his throat if he did, so there's no motivation to unless he has literally no other choice.

Edited by ECD on Oct 26th 2022 at 6:59:07 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#311: Oct 26th 2022 at 6:59:37 PM

We've already seen Cassian tested multiple times including by 80,000,000 credits.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#312: Oct 26th 2022 at 7:30:07 PM

[up]Sure. He didn't rob them. That's a different question from whether he'll betray an employer he knew for maybe a day if his life is on the line. And given that it's pretty clear his whole life up to this point has been him stumbling backwards into one disaster after another, him getting into such a position isn't that unlikely.

Though I do wonder if Luthen's pride may be playing him false here. He knows he's a big fish with a target on his back. The Empire's figured out he's 'Axis'. But as far as Cassian knows, he's basically just some rebel fixer. Maybe of some value, but hardly worth revealing he was involved in Aldhani for.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#313: Oct 27th 2022 at 1:38:12 AM

Has the Empire figured out he's Axis? I thought that Dedra has so far only got as far as identifying that "Axis" exists (which is still very bad news) but they need Andor to confirm Axis' identity.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#314: Oct 27th 2022 at 4:53:19 AM

[up]I'd need to rewatch, but I thought she I Ded Cassian's 'partner' as Axis?

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#315: Oct 27th 2022 at 5:40:59 AM

[up]I don't think it was explicit, but it's safe to assume she sees Cassian's unknown partner as a potentially valuable lead to finding Axis even if he isn't actually Axis personally.

Vlad3163 Since: May, 2022
#316: Oct 27th 2022 at 6:38:50 AM

They attached the name "Axis" to the person who helped Cassian escape, making the (correct) assumption that he is a big fish in the Rebellion, but they do not have his actual identity.

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#317: Oct 27th 2022 at 6:57:08 AM

Dedra's exact words were "Andor was in the act of transferring the unit to a person we've named Axis because of his centrality to what we believe to be an organized rebel effort to acquire specialized Imperial gear." Though "transferring the unit to Axis" might not mean literally "meeting in person with the central figure for a handoff". Even though that is what happened.

If she is confidently claiming that the specific old man Cassian met with on Ferrix is a key person in a growing rebellion, then she's probably talking out her ass, in spite of the fact of the fact that that is the truth.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#318: Oct 27th 2022 at 7:45:27 AM

Dedra knows that Axis exists and that whoever met Andor either IS Axis or knows who he is. But she is not aware that Luthen is the person in question.

Luthen for his part is aware that Andor could ID him but doesn't know that the Empire are actively searching for him yet I believe.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#319: Oct 27th 2022 at 7:53:22 AM

The big new deduction she puts forward is that while the earlier thefts were random, she has enough now to figure out they were all purchased by the same entity. From her presentation, we can assume she already had some kind of evidence (or more likely found it during her offscreen investigation in the last couple episodes) about Luthen's involvement in those purchases that she's only explaining to her superiors and the audience now.

It also overturns our earlier conclusion that she was assuming Cassian was a Rebel. She never thought Cassian was a Rebel, looks like. She just suspected that the person buying from him was.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2022 at 8:35:44 AM

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#320: Oct 27th 2022 at 8:34:39 AM

While rewatching the ISB scenes to see what they were saying about Luthen, I was struck by the audacity of Syril's "I solved a double murder and found the killer in two days."

It's another case of villains making assumptions that we know are correct, but Syril literally didn't "solve" anything beyond finding the identity of a dude who walked into a brothel. The deaths of those two guards are no more solved than they were when Chief Inspector Hyne told him to drop the case.

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#321: Oct 27th 2022 at 9:33:55 AM

[up]I mean, the fact that the ISB is here for information confirms it to him (I think there's no doubt that he'd doubt their information). Though it also seems clear that he's emotionally committed to having been right, as he can't have torched his career and gotten a bunch of people killed and been WRONG.

EruditeEsotericist Since: May, 2015
#322: Oct 27th 2022 at 9:46:03 AM

This is honestly some of the best use of Dramatic Irony I've ever seen. We know a lot of characters are right but basically none can prove it yet. The evidence they have is speculative, circumstantial or an inference.

We know the Rebellion itself, and Cassian and Mothma specifically, will survive (and she will ultimately end up in a position of power again, even if she loses it in the interim).

But there's so much we don't know, and the characters still have so many gaps to fill in.

It's truly fascinating.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#323: Oct 27th 2022 at 10:00:29 AM

Prequels are seen as and indeed often are easy cash grabs (like we have an upcoming Lion King prequel about Mufasa...why?) but I think this is a great example of Prequel Done Right. I don't think it would have worked half as well if it had come out before Rogue One, and that film's events make events so much more loaded. (Of course, from a writing perspective that's probably because they had the foundations of the character down and are just calling forward now, but you get what I mean.)

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 27th 2022 at 12:01:10 PM

Vlad3163 Since: May, 2022
#324: Oct 27th 2022 at 10:35:30 AM

So another potential plot hook: Syril stated with absolute confidence that he would recognize Luthen's voice (and I mean, let's be honest, Stellan Skarsgard has a very unique voice). Since they are both primarily on Coruscant now, there's pretty much a non-zero percent chance that Syril is going to overhear him at some point, yeah?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#325: Oct 27th 2022 at 10:45:00 AM

That would work. It’s a very Star Wars-style coincidence. Syril walks into Luthen’s shop at random (maybe his mother makes him pick something up), hears his voice, tries to bring the hammer down in him but nobody will believe him, so he takes matters into his own hands and all hell breaks loose.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 27th 2022 at 11:07:54 AM


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