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Marvel Studios' She-Hulk: Attorney at Law

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Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#2601: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:45:20 PM

I hate to do this, but did you watch the episode? This is covered while Jen and Nikki are at Jen's parents' house. The site is hosted offshore and its users' IP addresses aren't traceable, presumably because they use VP Ns. She doesn't have the resources of a forensic criminal unit.

I did watch the episode, yes. Still skeptical. I get that she couldn't track them herself, but you'd think they'd still get investigated on by the authorities, if just because they indirectly caused that mess. For crying out loud, they hacked into an official event in public! Even assuming they put the blame at least partially on She-Hulk, why wouldn't they let Intelligencia get away scott-free?

Yeah, there’s also the side implication that the DA/police aren’t taking the crime seriously until publicly shammed about it by Jen doing their job for them.

... She didn't, though? She ended up on the site of their reunion purely by accident.

Edited by Theokal3 on Oct 14th 2022 at 2:47:18 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2602: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:48:32 PM

It's hardly the first time a woman who had just been publicly humiliated got victim-blamed while her attackers were ignored. It's a bit heavy-handed, sure, but in context with the theme of the episode, it makes perfect sense. The writers decided that just when things were looking up, her entire life had to go to shit to create pointless drama.

Is there a bit of have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too going on here? Sure, but I'll take that any day over yet another final act CGI throwdown. (I recognize as I write this that I'll probably be cheering over the big final-act throwdowns of the next several Marvel movies and shows.)

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 14th 2022 at 8:52:11 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#2603: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:51:23 PM

Yeah, yeah, I get the implication obviously, but... to this degree? It's not like she was the only victim in that mess. They didn't just victimized a woman, they willingly provoked someone with superhuman strenght into going on a rampage, while hacking technology that presumably belonged to whoever organized the gala and interrupting an official ceremony. Even while ignoring the attack on She-Hulk herself, there are plenty of things that I feel should not be ignored.

And yes, obviously the CGI climax would have sucked, but.... I don't know, I don't quite feel like this ending is super-satisfying either. It's not bad, and the meta idea is interesting, but it still feels... rushed?

Edited by Theokal3 on Oct 14th 2022 at 2:53:30 PM

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#2604: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:53:33 PM

[up][up][up][up]But out of all the shows and movies, She-Hulk already had a natural way to avoid having just another giant fight at the end. Through the courts, since she is an attorney at all after all. The ending is just the writers just making such a ridiculous final fight to justify her breaking the fourth wall, then there really isn't a conclusion to the show. It skips over everything.

[up]They needed to ignore all that so they had the time to have Jen confront K.E.V.I.N.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#2605: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:54:19 PM

[up]So you think so much is handwaved in the last minutes because of the limited runtime?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2606: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:54:48 PM

[up][up][up]Eh, maybe. For all we know there is a criminal case against Intelligencia going on, but the police aren't able to track them down. That's all offscreen, since the focus of the episode is on Jen's personal struggles. The show is maintaining a really tight focus.

Hilariously, Jen even calls K.E.V.I.N. out on trying to insert gratuitous continuity references into her show. In retrospect, her fourth-wall break in Episode 3 is her first noticing that and getting annoyed by it.

[up][up] To be sure, there is almost certainly some genuine out-of-universe reasoning behind the choices here, such as the show's obviously limited CG budget (something that affected Ms. Marvel and Thor: Love and Thunder as well). We can't ignore that. But the point of this episode is for Jen to take control and get the ending that she, personally wants. For that to work, it has to go completely out of her control first — narratively as well as personally.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 14th 2022 at 8:57:09 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#2607: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:55:46 PM

[up][up]Yes, a limited runtime is one of the main issues.

[up]Or she could have just worked to get back in control, instead of pulling some out a Deus ex Machina.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Oct 14th 2022 at 9:07:23 AM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#2608: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:57:40 PM

[up]... I suppose that's a fair point.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#2609: Oct 14th 2022 at 5:57:44 PM

The episodes here are shorter than the prior shows episodes

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2610: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:30:07 PM

Or she could have just worked to get back in control, instead of pulling some out a Deus ex Machina.

I'm usually not that guy either, but... have you read a She-Hulk comic? Or heard about one?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#2611: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:35:21 PM

[up]Yes? I'm not allowed to want an actual conclusion to the show? She breaks the fourth wall, changes the situation at the end. And then we learn what happened through bits of dialogue.

If she did that and we got to see some epic speech she gave at court or something that would be different. But this is a superhero/legal comedy that rejects both the legal and superhero sides for the ending.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Oct 14th 2022 at 9:36:38 AM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2612: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:37:14 PM

[up] We did get to see an epic speech in court. In court with K.E.V.I.N. She literally uses her lawyer skills to convince god to rewrite the universe for her.

Do you really want to see a finale that's literally just a vanilla court scene? I much prefer the more creative version of the thing you're describing.

regulation pigeon
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#2613: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:41:38 PM

I didn't think that speech was epic at all, it thought it was being more clever than it really was. The show wasn't "out there" (for lack of me thinking of a better term) enough to really earn that kind of ending.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Oct 14th 2022 at 9:44:16 AM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2614: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:43:44 PM

Well if you didn't like that speech, what makes you think a no-frills court scene would be better written?

Besides, that definitely didn't come out of nowhere. The fourth wall breaks have been amping up in frequency and intensity throughout the show, so of course it would come to a head at the end. Besides, it if was 100% completely telegraphed, then it wouldn't be surprising. It was still meant to take you by surprise.

Edited by MurlocAggroB on Oct 14th 2022 at 7:44:13 AM

regulation pigeon
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#2615: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:47:21 PM

Maybe I wouldn't, at least an actual court scene would show us what happened. instead of it being told to us through a news report

They were amping up, but not enough for me to accept that kind of ending. And if a super hero battle was the "natural conclusion", a court scene would be surprising as well.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2616: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:51:27 PM

But not 'as' surprising. They wanted to do something that literally no one was going to predict. And like I said, it is still a court scene ending, where the hero saves the day via debate. And it's even a She-Hulk action scene! It's like having your cake, eating it, having the one you ate, and then still eating the one you have.

regulation pigeon
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#2617: Oct 14th 2022 at 6:54:19 PM

Wouldn't anyone that read She-Hulk comics be able to predict this?

And its nothing like having and eating multiple cakes. Its more like having a cake, then getting it taken away after a couple bites (superhero ending), a random pie (the K.E.V.I.N. ending), then getting the crumbs of a second cake (the legal epilogue)

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Oct 14th 2022 at 9:58:11 AM

You and I remember Budapest very differently
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#2618: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:00:36 PM

I'm fairly amused that for all the mention that Deadpool would definitely do something like this, both his movies ended in a fairly straightforward manner

Deadpool 1 he defeats Ajak, successfully avenging himself, and saving the woman he loves

Deadpool 2 in the battle for Russell's soul he manages to successfully talk him down and prevent him from becoming a supervillain and eventually killing Cable's family with a speech that is for the most part treated with sincerity

[up] Well the Sensational She-Hulk comic regularly does stuff like this but Jen does the reality breaking stuff way more casually than she does on the show

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 14th 2022 at 7:01:51 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2619: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:01:49 PM

To be fair, that's the point.

She gets victim blamed because of being a woman and being a superhuman.

A double whammy in the MCU.

Now I want She-Hulk to get Patsy Walker out of prison in Season 2.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 14th 2022 at 7:02:06 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2620: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:08:37 PM

[up][up][up] Agree to disagree I suppose, but I just don't understand how your proposed ending would've been more interesting.

regulation pigeon
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#2621: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:13:05 PM

I didn't think that speech was epic at all, it thought it was being more clever than it really was. The show wasn't "out there" (for lack of me thinking of a better term) enough to really earn that kind of ending.

All I could think of was.... did they really just have a story that's attempting to address issues about feminism/misogyny end with Jen... asking to speak to the manager?

Okey Dokey!
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#2622: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:18:32 PM

Speaking only for myself, my beef is that her entire argument is that it's her 'show'/life and it shouldn't be bound by the MCU formula, which is a strong moral and aesthetic argument, which she apparently wins, only to not actually win.

She appears to get what she's demanding, only to have half of it immediately undone in the service of the larger MCU formula. It wants credit for admitting something is bad...which it then proceeds to still do! Negative points for recognizing they shouldn't do something, admitting they shouldn't do it...then doing it anyway!

I hate this narrative structure more generally, whether it's Xanatos explaining at the end how he really won, despite everything we saw on screen, or the Light announcing 'Everything's going according to plan, despite the last twenty minutes you just watched of our plans apparently being thwarted' or KEVIN graciously allowing her to have her own life and have it actually be about her only to yank that away at the last second.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#2623: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:23:20 PM

Negative points for recognizing they shouldn't do something, admitting they shouldn't do it...then doing it anyway!

I say the same thing about them making a joke about the visual effects, when I'm a Google search away from countless articles about how overworked and underpaid Marvel's VFX teams are.

Okey Dokey!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2624: Oct 14th 2022 at 7:58:03 PM

my beef is that her entire argument is that it's her 'show'/life and it shouldn't be bound by the MCU formula, which is a strong moral and aesthetic argument, which she apparently wins, only to not actually win.

I mean, she does win, doesn't she? She is vindicated in the public eye, gets to take Intelligencia to court, gets her job back, gets to hang out with Matt Murdock, and in general wins a total personal victory, all without a giant CGI battle. I guess she technically loses on Bruce showing up with a movie hook, but nobody can have it all.

Part of being a good lawyer is knowing when to stop pushing your luck.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 14th 2022 at 10:59:25 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2625: Oct 14th 2022 at 8:00:09 PM

[up][up] At least it was a joke about them being overworked, and not actually poking fun at their work like Taika Watiti did. It's still a bit skeevy given current events, but I wasn't too offended.

regulation pigeon

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