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The Problem With Real Life Examples

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TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#1: Apr 25th 2022 at 5:53:01 AM

As a frequent poster on the Real Life cleanup thread I’ve noticed that most real life examples on most pages are some combination of misuse, general examples, or are flat out flame bait. Others noted that they wouldn’t mind them being cut entirely but said this would be a more appropriate place for that discussion. As a counter, since general examples are the most common problem but most entries that are cut for being such are easily verifiable or are common sense (or what counts as general can be pretty murky) I would also like to see if loosening the general example rule for real life examples a bit is a viable option. Real Life is much broader than fiction after all.

Once Upon A Time.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#2: Apr 25th 2022 at 5:56:24 AM

I am sort of at a crossroads with these examples. (This is actually the second time today I have said that in a Trope/Wiki Talk thread.) On one hand, the current system seems to be working. On the other hand, I agree that many of these examples are misuse, general, sometimes ROCEJ-y, etc. and I'm OK with gutting them if it comes down to it. I personally think they can go since I feel they aren't worth monitoring to this degree, but I'm alright if we vote to keep them as well.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#3: Apr 25th 2022 at 6:00:27 AM

[up] I personally think loosening the restrictions on general examples would be fine since a lot of them are pretty easily verifiable or are common sense and Real Life is much broader than fiction.

Once Upon A Time.
Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#4: Apr 25th 2022 at 6:39:59 AM

I'd say it could be broadened for so-called general examples. If I could list the entire species of Goombas from Super Mario Bros. as The Goomba, there's little reason for me not to think people with Prader-willi syndrome can't be listed as Obsessed with Food. For the record, Real Life only has one sort-of JFF page. A general example for the former would be if I tried to lump all enemies from Nintendo's platformer games who appear on the first level.

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 25th 2022 at 3:42:07 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#5: Apr 25th 2022 at 6:40:49 AM

I'm also OK with broadening for the record, if everyone agrees to it.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#6: Apr 25th 2022 at 7:03:35 AM

Both of these are general examples even though they are perfectly vaild. One is for Armor Is Useless where the British experimented with chainmail and found it made bullets worse since the chains would shatter and add to the bullet wound. Another is for Awesome, but Impractical which is Liquid Nitrogen Cooling, which allows for insane overclocks but is extremely dangerous and has to be replaced constantly. Both are technically general examples but are I feel are perfectly fine and valid examples that can be easily verified. Many general Real Life examples are so broad they’re useless or are unsubstantiated claims but many examples are lumped in even though they’re neither.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Apr 25th 2022 at 10:05:06 AM

Once Upon A Time.
BoltDMC Since: May, 2020
#7: Apr 25th 2022 at 7:05:54 AM

I’m all in favor of banning Real Life folders and pages from TV Tropes. They’re invariably loaded with natter-filled and general examples, degenerate into Cliff Clavin style trivial blather, and frequently contain examples that bear minimal to no relation to the actual trope.

I also find it frustrating to see tropes that clearly have good reasons why they should have their Real Life folders removed, only to have them remain as Keep Real Life Examples because they attracted sufficient votes to stay that way — often by the slimmest of margins. It’s rare that anyone actually posts good reasons on the thread why the examples should be kept, either.

That being said, I’m not averse to endorsing a less than complete ban if that’s the best we can manage. Getting through some restrictions is better than not getting any in place at all.

bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#8: Apr 25th 2022 at 7:25:20 AM

This is a solution in search of a problem.

2025: the year it all ends?
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#9: Apr 25th 2022 at 7:35:49 AM

As someone once said, the site is about documenting patterns that happen in fiction (and Non-Fiction works), and not about everything fans find interesting, so Real Life examples aren't of much use for us. Any actually good ones feel like rarity, and still could easily go to Analysis/ or UN/.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#10: Apr 25th 2022 at 8:12:27 AM

BDMC, we have specifically considered not treating the examples you're talking about as general (though I do see your point elsewhere). And BWB, that comment is just useless if no argument or explanation is provided. I do agree that an Analysis/ page that more closely states how a trope works in/resembles Real Life or just the Truth in Television index can oftentimes work.

Edited by Piterpicher on Apr 25th 2022 at 6:57:27 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#11: Apr 25th 2022 at 9:32:28 AM

My not-actually-justified-by-anything-concrete hunch is that there is a line that can be drawn from "listing real life examples of a trope" to "the tendency to trope real people like characters and real-world events like plots". The line can be fine and while tossing everything out seems like an extreme solution, I understand the frustration.

When I write descriptions (and I also recommend this in TLP) I always try to put real life bases/Truths in Television in the description rather than at the bottom, but that's personal preference as it stands.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 25th 2022 at 11:33:09 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#12: Apr 25th 2022 at 11:37:47 AM

I can't help but feel that a lot of this is negativity bias. Granted, that's what a lot of cleanup discourse revolves around lately- seeing the overwhelming amount of bad and taking the good for granted.

Plenty of tropes have perfectly functional and interesting real-life sections. The tropes that have bad ones are problematic, yeah, but a problem that's very easily fixed. But some tropes, using Short-Lived Leadership as an example (because I launched it), have pretty solid real-life sections that offer interesting trivia (in this case, funny history facts) and don't clash with anything on the page, instead just showing how sometimes the real-life cases are just as extreme as the exaggerated trope portrayals.

And I think that's fun... which is something this site seems to be turning against, as of late... but that might also be my negativity bias at work. But, yeah, learning things is fun, especially when it's just broken up into smaller, bite-sized trivia nuggets and related to the tropes we're already having fun reading about. The ideal real-life sections hurt nothing and add some extra wrinkles to your brain, so I see no reason to cut them entirely.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#13: Apr 25th 2022 at 11:57:11 AM

[up] FWIW broadening the restrictions on Real Life examples to allow for more general ones is still an option.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#14: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:04:02 PM

Eh, I don't agree with that so much either. I think we're fine the way we are. General examples are bad because they tell you nothing- and general real-life examples can probably just be mentioned in the description with just as much impact.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#15: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:07:12 PM

[up] I wouldn’t really say that about many of the general examples I’ve seen (such as the two I brought up earlier as an example of what type of “general” examples I think are fine for Real Life examples)

Once Upon A Time.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#16: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:10:32 PM

See, I wouldn't really agree that those are general examples at all. They name a specific subject and explain that subject. A true general example would be something like (using the Short-Lived Leadership example again) "This happened a lot with the rulers of ancient kingdoms" and not elaborating further.

General examples are vague and non-specific. Your examples aren't that, and so I don't see why they'd even be classified as general.

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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#17: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:11:18 PM

[up][up][up] You know, you actually do have a point. I do like some Real Life sections—mainly Trivia ones.

I guess I'll concede.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Apr 25th 2022 at 3:11:25 PM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#18: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:12:10 PM

[up][up] That’s what I meant by broadening what is allowed. Those two examples I brought up seem to be considered general examples.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Apr 25th 2022 at 3:13:02 PM

Once Upon A Time.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#19: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:12:36 PM

To use Short-Lived Leadership as an example of general examples, you'd have "Some British monarchs ruled for less than a year before they died." General examples aren't, as a rule, very interesting, because they don't provide details.

Addressing "people with Prader-willi syndrome can't be listed as Obsessed with Food.", the problem is the phrasing. Don't trope the people, trope the disease/syndrome/condition. You're right that "people with X" is general, but "this syndrome" is specific. Something like the following:

  • Prader-willi syndrome is a problem based in a person's hypothalamus, which controls feelings of fullness or hunger. People with Prader-willi tend to suffer from a constant gnawing hunger that persists even when their body is full. Such people are often thinking about their next meal, even while they're eating another!

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#20: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:13:05 PM

I like reading RL examples, they just stand out too much from the rest by not citing any work.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#21: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:14:08 PM

[up][up] The thing is, that seems to be considered a general example from what I’ve gathered.

[up] Real Life examples are some of my favorite things to read on the wiki.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Apr 25th 2022 at 3:14:45 PM

Once Upon A Time.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
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#22: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:14:14 PM

I'm going to step out of this debate as I feel I do not have anything meaningful to add anymore here. I'm also trying to avoid coming off, as I said in another thread, as a "Stop Having Fun" Guy.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#23: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:14:26 PM

By who? Who considers them general, Drawing? Because they really don't fit the definition of a general example, and I think real-life sections are already broad enough to include them. The issue seems to be, if anything, that people are way too strict... a common problem with cleanup threads in general.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 25th 2022 at 3:15:30 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#24: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:17:26 PM

[up] The cleanup thread, going by what I’ve seen.

Once Upon A Time.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#25: Apr 25th 2022 at 12:21:23 PM

Then, uh, yeah. People bein' too strict. It happens a lot with cleanup threads. People'll get an idea of what they think the policy is, or have a more narrow viewpoint of the trope than normal editors do, and use that as justification to cut examples.

I may sound hypocritical because I'm always posting on those threads, but a lot of us have noticed that sort of trigger-happy strictness in a lot of places (like the hindsight thread and the SRO thread). The Real-Life thread is usually pretty solid, but ya know, if that's what's considered "general"...

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 25th 2022 at 3:22:46 PM

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