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By "social media" we mean any large computer network that allows people to interact in shared communities. The big ones of course are Facebook, Twitter (X), and Instagram, but we can't forget newer platforms like Discord and Slack.

Dedicated video sites are off-topic here and YouTube has its own separate thread.

What we should discuss in this OTC topic are news items, business operations, and activities by the networks themselves, not specific things posted by users. Those should go into threads appropriate to the subjects of those posts. For example, if an actor tweets about a film, we'd discuss that in the Media forum topic for the film, not here. If Facebook changes its policies, that could be discussed here.

The politics, motives, competency and wider business activities of the owners and leaders of social media companies (e.g. Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg) are also off-topic — except in situations where they are directly making specific policy for the platform.

Talking about a particular Instagram policy change (or a high-profile ban on a specific user) directly announced by Mark Zuckerberg would be acceptable in this thread, speculating about Zuckerberg's wider motivations wouldn't be.

One exception is Truth Social, due to its connection to Donald Trump. As there is a forum ban on US Politics, all discussion of Truth Social is off-topic and posts about the platform may be thumped.

The thread's also not about "dumb thing [public figure] said on [social media platform]". If there isn't a specific thread related to the subject of the statement, then it's probably gossip and not worth talking about.


     Thread OP 
So, I was looking for a dedicated social media thread and apparently there was this one created back in 2020 that we never opened. Unfortunately, it's a little stale, so bumping it isn't going to work very well, but I would like to restart it. The reason I'm doing so is that the Computer Thread seems to have become the de facto place for this sort of talk, and it's a big tonal clash with talking about computer tech.

The hot topic of the day is Elon Musk's bid to acquire Twitter. We first discussed it in the Computer Thread, starting roughly here, and I am not going to rehash the entire discussion. Instead, I am going to resume from the last post:

CNBC: Twitter is reportedly taking another look at Musk takeover bid

Twitter's board is reportedly meeting with Elon Musk and may seek to negotiate on his buyout offer. Musk claims to have secured $46 billion in funding to buy the company at a valuation of $43 billion and is preparing to make a tender offer to its shareholders.

While the board has passed a poison pill, it could be facing resistance to that from groups of shareholders and will want to talk things out rather than face a hostile takeover. It's also possible that Twitter's stock could crash if the offer fails to go through.


Another possible topic was originally posted here.

Ars Technica: EU to unveil landmark law to force Big Tech to police illegal content

Following on from the recently passed Digital Markets Act, which requires large tech companies to unbundle first-party software from hardware platforms, the proposed Digital Services Act will require medium and large social media platforms and search engines to police hate speech and disinformation while adding additional protections for children against targeted marketing.

It also bans "dark patterns", which manipulate or trick people into clicking on ads or other content. The article doesn't explicitly say what that means, but I assume it includes things like disguising ads to look like parts of a site's user interface, hiding "close" buttons, and such.

For large companies, the requirements would go into effect immediately. For medium companies, they would have a grace period to implement the changes.

Thierry Breton, the EU’s internal market commissioner, has warned that Big Tech has become “too big to care.”

This phrase, "too big to care", intrigues me. It's an indictment of the idea that these companies have decided that growth and engagement metrics overwhelm any sense of social responsibility.

In my opinion, a law like this would be impossible in the United States, since it would be challenged (likely successfully) on First Amendment grounds.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 8th 2024 at 5:16:31 PM

minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#276: Apr 27th 2022 at 2:14:14 AM

I don't like Musk either, but a lot of important companies are owned by horrible people, and I don't see why that's relevant to the discussion right now.

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#277: Apr 27th 2022 at 2:15:06 AM

A billionaire tech oligarch who got rich off slave mining, stole art and then got punchy about it, has gone on record saying that crediting artists is "destroying the medium", called a man rescuing trapped teens from a cave a pedophile because he didn't want to wait for Musk's poorly-tested submarine, once declared that a nebulous 'we' "will coup whoever we want" in response to criticism over funding coups in exchange for lithium access, promised to solve world hunger with $6 billion if given a budget to do so and then refused... We call that a pattern of behavior. You can make some assumptions on future behavior from examples like that.

Basically, Twitter has outsized influence on matters like political discourse, and it has a responsibility to wield that influence responsibly and in a constructive manner. Musk's nebulous "grey area" suggests that he will decide what constitutes acceptable free speech on the platform in the future more or less based on personal preference - which is his right as the platform owner, legally, but let's all just be aware of what those preferences are indicated to be.

Edited by RedSavant on Apr 27th 2022 at 2:17:21 AM

It's been fun.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#278: Apr 27th 2022 at 3:39:52 AM

The emerald mine thing is false, or at least misleading, okay. Bear in mind when you search for stories on Musk that there is enormous bias — from many angles, I might add.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#279: Apr 27th 2022 at 3:42:06 AM

Except that on the internet “enormous bias” regarding him just seems to be a synonym for “was critical of him or his work”.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#280: Apr 27th 2022 at 3:45:33 AM

We can at least attempt to establish truth here, and anyone who repeats known falsehoods is doing so in ignorance, bias, or both. Musk did not benefit from any emerald mines. His father was abusive and became estranged from his family. Taking advantage of dual citizenship, Musk went to school in Canada and mostly had to support himself. He inherited nothing, save for a few thousand dollars of spending money.

Right-wing people amplify lies in order to serve their own political interests. We're supposed to be above that.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 27th 2022 at 6:57:22 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#281: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:17:05 AM

Okay, so here’s what we do know for sure.

His factories foster a really racist work environment and he will go to extreme lengths to defame anyone trying to set up a union. He has a history of incendiary and dangerous statements when anyone makes him look bad. (You falsely call someone a pedophile in the wrong place, they could get straight up murdered) He routinely blocks people while talking about how a ban should only be a last resort and he mocked the idea of crediting artists, apparently for the sole reason that someone called him out for not doing so. He also has a history of really bad snap decisions that he doesn’t bother to consult anyone on, only backing off if there’s serious financial consequences. He openly manipulates the stock market and the crypto markets, fucking over his own shareholders the instant he gets the chance. He really, really, really does not want a background check to be done on him. He has a history of promising the moon and then trying to shut out anyone who attempts to collect on his promises.

This is not a person who understands why restricting things like racist harassment is a good idea, because he doesn’t experience it himself, he will absolutely try to leverage his control into pushing his own narrative, and he’s the kind of person who gives up on something when it turns out that it doesn’t work the way he thought. Like, that UN exchange just makes him look like a petty asshole, especially when it was shortly followed by this Twitter purchase. He can get $44 billion for buying the toxic bird site but he can’t get $6.6 billion for helping solve world hunger that he promised? Those are some fucked up priorities.

Musk has a cult of personality around him that doesn’t resemble the reality much, if at all, and I think it’s important to recognize that his track record really doesn’t point to him being the person for the job. Like, at all. He’s extremely unreliable and gets angry when he’s corrected on something. You really want someone like that to control Twitter?

Edited by Zendervai on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:20:19 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#282: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:23:07 AM

You really want someone like that to control Twitter?

No, I don't. I already said that I think this is a bad idea, but not because it'll necessarily make Twitter any better or any worse. From my perspective, Twitter's inability to stop bots and other malicious actors is a big deal and I hope he fixes it. I don't know if that is enough of a justification for this move, because Musk has enough on his plate already and needs to (in my opinion) steer clear of politics rather than wade into them.

The worst case for Twitter is that it devolves into another right-wing cesspool, everyone but a few die-hards abandons it, and it fades into irrelevance. The best case is that it fixes its fundamental problems and becomes more useful for everyone. Neither of those was likely to happen with the status quo ante. For all that so many people complain about Twitter, they seem oddly attached to it.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:25:16 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#283: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:24:39 AM

You, uh, really seriously did not make that clear. You spent so much time talking about how it could work and defending Musk that you buried your actual opinion on the matter.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#284: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:26:46 AM

Many of the ideas that Musk is talking about with respect to online identification and de-botting are near and dear to my heart because I firmly believe in them. I think it's refreshing that someone is actually trying them. I just wish it didn't come with the rest of the baggage.

The point is that this is not a black-and-white situation like so many people wish it were. Musk is not all-good or all-bad. He's a complex person with a rich history of achievements and a rich history of saying really stupid things. We have to acknowledge reality in order to deal with it.


Edit: There is another phenomenon going on here that is beyond Musk or any other individual, no matter how grandiose. The censorship of hate speech and disinformation that occurs in social media has created a counter-pressure from people who feel that they are unable to express their views without being banned. This pressure seeks an outlet, as we see in all the right-wing attempts to Start My Own (Truth Social, etc.).

I think it is unfortunate that Musk has become the focal point of the hopes and dreams of these people. It didn't have to be this way. I think that the relentless attacks from the left on him (some valid, some not) have driven him rightward. I heard someone say recently (only half-joking) that only someone like him could sell electric vehicles to conservatives as a way to "own the libs".

We can say that all of this is wrong, and I agree, but that doesn't make it any less real. I hope that these people are wrong and Musk recognizes that moderation of hate is necessary to keep Twitter usable.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:39:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#285: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:39:46 AM

[up]Part of acknowledging reality in this case is acknowledging the terrible things Elon Musk has said and done and that people have a reason to be worried, and not just saying "fake news" whenever critique of him comes up. We have to admit that people, especially minorities have damn good reasons to be afraid.

Just a few examples with evidence: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/elon-musk-twitter-terrible-things-hes-said-and-done

Edited by Wildcard on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:41:39 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#286: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:43:58 AM

Some folks see those things and say that Musk is a terrible person, downplaying all of his genuine accomplishments. Some people see those accomplishments and feel that they justify or at least excuse the bad things he's said. Neither is wholly right. If I err toward the latter, it's partly out of my own desire to be right, but also because I firmly believe that nobody else could (or would) have done the good things, and I also firmly believe that these are/were things that needed doing.

Henry Ford is remembered both for his horrible treatment of workers and his introduction of mass-production into the auto industry. Werner von Braun is remembered for being a genius rocket scientist and for being part of the Nazi party. Musk is not a Nazi, and he pays his workers well, but will he be remembered as "the pedo guy" or the man who rekindled the era of the electric vehicle and brought human spaceflight back to the United States? Or both?

Heck, I don't know that my personality would be that well received by the public if I were a super-successful entrepreneur or whatever. There but for the grace of God...

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:47:49 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#287: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:49:49 AM

Depends on whether or not you think one outweighs the other. For some people, whatever accomplishments Musk has under his belt just doesn't make up for his personal shittiness.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#288: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:52:16 AM

He could be both, but he is doing everything is his power to show he won't. Despite the pay he treats his employees like garbage. He'll probably be remembered more as an awful boss if he keeps on doing this shit, and people, especially minorities have every reason to believe he'll still be his old self.

Lets not just pretend he has said bad things either Fighteer, he has done terrible actions. Like demanding unpaid overtime from his employees and threatening to fire them if they don't do that.. Something I'd doubt you or anyone here would do if they got a big company working under them.

Edited by Wildcard on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:55:34 AM

minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#289: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:52:16 AM

For the purposes of this thread though, what Musk achieved in the space and automotive industries is not relevant; what is relevant is whether i) he will take meddle in the workings of Twitter and ii)how much of his awfulness will spill over

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#290: Apr 27th 2022 at 4:54:16 AM

The historic accolades can wait until he's dead and in the history books, or at least until he actually achieves any of those goals beyond in-potentia. As for the other half, you make one international incident about your own ego and then slander the man who actually helped...

In any case, I feel like this argument has run its course. Musk's other workings are irrelevant; what's relevant is his character (shown to be bad, by his own words and actions), what he means by "bringing back freedom of speech" (suspect given his expressed views, particularly regarding freedom of information, intellectual property, and people who disagree with him); and what this will do to the political/social sphere in the short and long terms (hard to predict, but not really that hard to predict).

Edited by RedSavant on Apr 27th 2022 at 4:57:21 AM

It's been fun.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#291: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:33:10 AM

Regardless of Musk himself, I'm still intrigued by his suggestion of making the sorting algorithm open source. Because if so, then if Twitter ends up promoting racism or other forms of hate speech, then it will be possible to identify exactly why and how it does that, and then advocate for very specific changes to the code which would reverse it.

Potentially a very significant change.

Edited by DeMarquis on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:33:52 AM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#292: Apr 27th 2022 at 6:37:32 AM

That kinda depends on what the algorithm is actually like. Because a lot of algorithms like that tend to end up really bloated and convoluted to the point that it's really hard to tell why it came to a given conclusion. Like, there could be a single data point in there that's wildly changing the output...but no one else can tell what it actually is because the algorithm response to it isn't at all how a human would respond.

Algorithms aren't generally released because no one wants to admit they don't understand why it's spitting out the results it is. Or they don't want to admit that it's just bluntly racist. Note the algorithms that are supposed to do facial recognition but that can't tell if a black person is present or not.

The Tumblr algorithm is a good example of this too, where no one knew why it was flagging the pages it was since whatever criteria it had picked up was obviously not what it was intended to look for.

Edited by Zendervai on Apr 27th 2022 at 9:38:57 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#293: Apr 27th 2022 at 7:00:35 AM

Specifically, open-sourcing the algorithm won't tell us anything if there's some sort of supervised or unsupervised learning process, because then the platform will have its own internal representation of how to transform a data from a post to some value representing the content of that post and how it should promote it to someone, such as similarity to prior posts etc. etc. All you can do is put something in and see how it comes out, then try to guess what the hell is up with the training data in the process when you get a consistent error pattern. But... like, you don't need access to the underlying structure to do that; that's just general black box analysis.

The question I have for everyone then is why we accept being identifiable in other spaces. What makes Twitter an exception to the general expectation that when you’re in a public space you are identifiable by the authorities of that space?

The requirement and implication that you positively ID yourself so that your behaviour and actions can be tracked, regardless of whether you have done anything that warrants that sort of inspection, and that this identification must be actively maintained at all times. Which then establishes that the platform in question does know who you are and can't claim it doesn't know who might be posting such a thing (even if it's actually quite obvious to work out who it is), and is thus much more vulnerable to being forced to divulge user lists (or outright exploited into accessing those user lists). In this case, the additional threat of establishing this as a retroactive connection, so that you may as well have been wearing a nametag the entire time.

And if you're telling minorities "Hey, if someone really tries, they can identify you, so you might as well just not have any attempts at privacy anyway", you've developed an enormous blindspot for all human behaviour ever. The part where it at least takes some work is enough to give people the willingness to try it, and going "well this is going to be used by bad actors, so your concerns are irrelevant and if you're that concerned go back to hiding your minority status" is not great.

(This is also why I will always disagree with Fighteer's desire for everyone to have a single online account, ever, for their entire life, because it would make web moderation and login security easier.)

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#294: Apr 27th 2022 at 7:35:14 AM

Edited by Risa123 on Apr 27th 2022 at 7:37:30 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#295: Apr 27th 2022 at 8:43:45 AM

"Hey, if someone really tries, they can identify you, so you might as well just not have any attempts at privacy anyway"

Unfortunately, this is already true. Adding positive ID requirements for social media accounts isn't going to meaningfully change it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#296: Apr 27th 2022 at 8:48:12 AM

Um...that was a rephrasement of your position. Yes, that's already true. It is a bad thing. The only thing stopping a lot of swatting and detailed death threats is that it's kind of a pain to do enough digging usually and it has to be redone for everyone targeted.

But create a centralized database that directly states who each person is and where they live and all that requires is one person cracking it and releasing it and then suddenly it's dead easy for the bad actors to get the information. And a database like that would be an enormous target. This is why government databases are under a huge amount of encryption and a lot of them have heavy security measures including airgapping.

Going "well, this is already possible to do, but it's kind of finicky and difficult and doesn't always work" and following that up with "so we should make it easier for people to do it" doesn't flow.

It's a bad idea for sociological and psychological reasons, which IMO, outweigh the web programming reasons in favour of it. And a lot of the bad actors don't give a shit if anyone knows who they are, it literally doesn't occur to them that they could get consequences. Note the sheer scale of harassment directed at retail workers who asked people to wear masks, up to and including literal murder. It never occurred to any of the people responsible that they could possibly be held liable.

So all demanding ID would do is stifle minority voices and give power to the people who already don't give a shit if they're identified or not.

Edited by Zendervai on Apr 27th 2022 at 11:53:22 AM

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#297: Apr 27th 2022 at 8:54:16 AM

I think Fighteer is letting his experience as a moderator to influence his thinking.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#298: Apr 27th 2022 at 9:00:02 AM

[up][up] It's the difference between it being possible to follow you to, say, a gay bar, and having to file a notice that you're going to one before you're allowed in.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#299: Apr 27th 2022 at 9:09:01 AM

And, like has been said before, a policy like that is just likely to scare really vulnerable people off. When you have entire states trying to make it illegal to be trans and punishing kids and families who did nothing wrong, you do not want to make it so those people being punished have nowhere they can make a statement. Utah went so far as to pass a law to punish one person for daring to be a trans girl in sports. And Florida just stuck themselves with a giant tax bill for basically no reason through sheer spite.

These are not legislators who will go "well, it's a private company, what are you going to do?" These are legislators who will directly target Twitter and Musk if they think they can get something out of it.

Bots are a problem on Twitter. So is accounts getting hacked so that a blue checkmark account is suddenly pushing crypto. Forcing a real identity to be connected to an account will make the second problem worse. This is an extremely complicated problem with extremely large ramifications on marginalized communities and "but the bots will be gone" is not anywhere even remotely good enough to justify it.

Fighteer, you've said you think this is a bad development overall. Focusing on the silver lining over the legitimately terrible things in the cloud isn't helping.

Edited by Zendervai on Apr 27th 2022 at 12:13:17 PM

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun

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