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I noticed that a disproportionate share of the LGBT Rights Worldwide thread was dedicated to talking about British politics, and also that a disproportionate share of the British Politics thread was taken up by discussion about LGBT rights. This sometimes results in the same posters having the same conversation across both threads simultaneously, which gets very confusing. I have therefore taken the bold step of creating this dedicated thread so that a more coherent conversation can be maintained.

For those wondering, this picks up from comment 45017 in the British Politics thread and from comment 3357 in the LGBT Rights one.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#226: Jul 31st 2024 at 2:13:04 PM

Sounds like good news. The cynical part of my brain is thinking that it's just as well (for her) that Cass got her House of Lords seat before this was completed, if it finds some of the same flaws as the international responses.

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 1st 2024 at 12:03:15 PM

DoctorSleep Since: Nov, 2013
#227: Aug 2nd 2024 at 6:22:28 AM

JK Rowling's imaginary trans Olympian

Some genetic conditions, such as Swyer Syndrome, can cause a woman to be born with XY chromosomes.

Khelif has never identified as a man, as transgender, or as intersex—which refers to people with both male and female sex characteristics.) She is also from Algeria, where it is illegal to transition.
“Could any picture sum up our new men’s rights movement better?” Rowling wrote on Twitter while sharing a picture of Carini and Khelif following their bout. “The smirk of a male who’s knows he’s protected by a misogynist sporting establishment enjoying the distress of a woman he’s just punched in the head, and whose life’s ambition he’s just shattered.”

You literally can't win.

Edit: Mod edited to remove end of final sentence.

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 2nd 2024 at 3:38:13 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#228: Aug 2nd 2024 at 7:15:21 AM

I'd think this is worldwide, because this is talking about the Olympics, the woman being targeted is Algerian, her opponent was Italian, and of course the other usual transphobes are complaining.

Mrph1 MOD he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#229: Aug 2nd 2024 at 7:41:41 AM

Being angry at this sort of behaviour from JKR is entirely understandable. Describing her with a gender-specific offensive term tied to age/appearance isn't helping, though.

We've edited that line out after some discussion.

Edited by Mrph1 on Aug 2nd 2024 at 3:42:03 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#230: Aug 2nd 2024 at 7:43:05 AM

I'll say this much — my buyers' remorse for buying all of the Harry Potter books is higher than usual today.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#231: Aug 2nd 2024 at 7:46:19 AM

As wise people have said: Harry Potter tattoos have higher regret rates than any form of transition.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#232: Aug 2nd 2024 at 7:48:30 AM

I'd foolishly hoped the pressure on British LGBTQ+ folk would reduce a little after the election.

Although there is good news, it seems likely that JKR and friends are just going to double-down. How much the government listens is another matter.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#233: Aug 2nd 2024 at 11:22:59 AM

The government looks to be supportive of Rowling on this, saying that the match was “an incredibly uncomfortable watch” and suggesting that they are going to intervene to stop women like Khelif being allowed to compete in the future.[1]

None of that is surprising, Labour have established themselves as institutionally transphobic for a while now.

I expect this will escalate over the next few years, eventually most women’s events will have people throwing false accusations of being disguised men at their opponents to try and force them out.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#234: Aug 2nd 2024 at 11:39:37 AM

All of this wraps around to the farcical conclusion: "we want our celebration of human outliers to not include anything that might touch very specifically on producing more of a single hormone in 50% of the population in a manner that would leave it circulating in the blood."

Edited by RainehDaze on Aug 2nd 2024 at 7:39:56 PM

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#235: Aug 2nd 2024 at 11:40:15 AM

By that logic, Michael Phelps, who is literally built different, shouldn't be allowed to participate to swimming competitions.

Looks like we're going back to Greek times when Olympians competed naked to make sure that no women could participate.

Edited by Resileafs on Aug 2nd 2024 at 2:41:04 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#236: Aug 2nd 2024 at 11:48:13 AM

There isn't going to be a single person on a podium that isn't at least far off the normal bell curve, and probably have a bunch of minor mutations. Or doping, because I guess (at least for men) the very important thing is that you naturally generate a bizarre response rather than it being induced externally. Oh, but mechanical improvements in tools are allowed, except when they're not.

The whole thing's a pile of nonsense.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#237: Aug 2nd 2024 at 11:53:58 AM

I suspect that if Phelps was a women then such accusations would have been made and Phelps would be banned from competing, at least in the U.K.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#238: Aug 2nd 2024 at 12:23:11 PM

Questions about hormone levels and chromosomes have a long pedigree in sports. What's new today is the transgender angle.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheDandyBear Since: Oct, 2020
#239: Aug 2nd 2024 at 2:05:32 PM

This whole thing also just demonstrates that this rampant transphobia is also about policing and monstering any women who they consider not to fit their standards of conventional femininity. The likes of Rowling and Suzanne Moore have gone so far as to state that women with DSD are not real women and the misgendering and demonisation has continued further with Lin Yu Ting's bout today.

That we have journalists, ministers and a former prime minister all too willing to elevate and espouse these views is pretty damn dangerous.

Edited by TheDandyBear on Aug 2nd 2024 at 2:16:00 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#240: Aug 2nd 2024 at 2:13:49 PM

Keep in mind that Khelif may not even have DSD, the accusation of failing a test was made by a Russian run boxing federation (with links to Russian state-run oil) that was so corrupt that the IOC has to step in and expel them from the Olympics. The claim I’ve seen online is that the test ‘failure’ came right after Khelif defeated a Russian boxer.

You’re right though, we know exactly where this goes and it doesn’t end with the victimisation and abuse of trans people. I’ve been having an on and off debate about Rowling with my mother for a while now and I ended up pointing out to her today that the path of where this goes is very clear, it’s going to end up impacting any women who doesn’t fit the feminism stereotype and eventually men who don’t fit the masculine stereotype. She hasn’t responded since I point that out and highlighted that my brother and I are part of the later group.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheDandyBear Since: Oct, 2020
#241: Aug 2nd 2024 at 2:25:37 PM

[up] Well yes, this whole thing has required people to make a whole host of deeply personal assumptions about a person's private life, including whether or not a person is biologically "male" or whether they went through "male" puberty because that's clearly something any spectator is able to identify.

But yeah, this whole thing is very concerning and it shows no signs of abating even with a change of government. I'm a cisgendered, gay male who I guess passes as "masc" so in many ways that shields me from some of the more direct attacks, perhaps in a way that a straight man perceived as camp might not be.

I am a part of a close knit queer community where many people I know and care about are in the line fire. Not that it just impacts queer people, even those simply perceived as queer or who just don't fit societal norms are targets.

Edited by TheDandyBear on Aug 2nd 2024 at 2:42:02 AM

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#242: Aug 3rd 2024 at 1:01:24 AM

nd suggesting that they are going to intervene to stop women like Khelif being allowed to compete in the future.

So how is that end to "divisive culture wars" that she promised going?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#245: Aug 4th 2024 at 8:55:16 AM

As that thread points out, this is basically like a statement from "Anonymous", in that as an organisation anyone can issue a statement on their behalf without any oversight.

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Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#246: Aug 4th 2024 at 11:34:11 AM

[up][up]The way you put that sounds rather forceful. It's more of a "let's just go with it rather than start a fight, pretty please with sugar on it?"

So not only is it transphobic, but it's an incredibly wimpy statement. And as [up] said, it's also a request from a rando.

[down]fix'd, got them mixed up

Edited by Ramidel on Aug 4th 2024 at 1:35:11 AM

Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#247: Aug 4th 2024 at 11:42:52 AM

It's perhaps worth remembering it's transphobic, not homophobic.

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TheDandyBear Since: Oct, 2020
#248: Aug 4th 2024 at 12:18:45 PM

The vibe very much seems to be that the Cass Review has settled the issue for all time and is beyond reproach. Therefore, any concerns over its methodology and findings must be ideologically driven and therefore dismissed. Pretty much no debate is to be had at all.

Had the displeasure of reading a pretty insidious piece by Sonia Sodha (The Observers chief transphobe) where she stated that the BMA were guilty of breaking the "do no harm" principle due to raising objections to the Cass Review. Not surprising at this point but still maddening all the same.

CalicoCaitSith Part Time Magical Girl Since: Jun, 2022 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Part Time Magical Girl
#249: Aug 5th 2024 at 4:14:10 PM

You’re right though, we know exactly where this goes and it doesn’t end with the victimisation and abuse of trans people. I’ve been having an on and off debate about Rowling with my mother for a while now and I ended up pointing out to her today that the path of where this goes is very clear, it’s going to end up impacting any women who doesn’t fit the feminism stereotype and eventually men who don’t fit the masculine stereotype. She hasn’t responded since I point that out and highlighted that my brother and I are part of the later group.
This is why I argue that anti-trans "feminists" aren't actually feminists at all. And no this isn't the No True Scotsman fallacy - sexism has gender essentialism at its core, which transphobes are all too happy to push. Naturally, transmisogyny leads to very narrow definitions of who qualifies as a woman, and ultimately reinforces Acceptable Feminine Goals and Traits, as JKR is proving. It's going to turn into (if you'll excuse the unavoidable Harry Potter pun) a witch hunt.

What makes it even more ridiculous is that hormonal imbalances can affect anyone, and it'd be unreasonable to have to change your identity just because of a diagnosis. If JKR were to develop polycystic ovary syndrome and start producing more testosterone than most cis women do, would she have to start identifying as male by her own logic?

This kind of bizarre rhetoric would be laughable if it weren't getting taken 100% seriously and causing real harm.

Kindness is the most important thing in the world, and also the rarest.
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#250: Aug 5th 2024 at 4:38:12 PM

If JKR were to develop polycystic ovary syndrome and start producing more testosterone than most cis women do, would she have to start identifying as male by her own logic?

Well obviously it couldn't happen to her because she's a real woman.

But what would definitely happen is that JKR would get even more transphobic and louder about it and would hide that she has that syndrome.


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