Unclear Description: Filk Song

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I think that there might be some confusion going on because Fan Music can refer to two types of music: songs with original lyrics relating to the parent work (orginal tune optional), and fan-made remixes of songs from the parent work.

Since the first type has lyrics and often an original narrative, they're almost always tropable if someone is willing to do the work. The second type, being instrumental, is not (except for some audio-specific tropes I guess).

My position is that we haven't been using it incorrectly at all. Some people define it narrowly. I don't disagree that some people do. I contend, however, that common usage of the term makes it indistinguishable from Fan Music.

This person explains the concept and claims that "Weird Al" Yankovic isn't a filker.

This biography has the narrator request a definition of the term, and they do include Weird Al as a filker.

Overall, Filk Conventions recognize that the core idea is fan-made music, and that they tend towards folk songs because that style works great for conventions and people with varying levels of skill.

Since a "filk song" can be of any genre, made by any fans of anything (not just genre fiction), and performed anywhere, keeping a descriptive approach to the definition leads us to making it synonymous with fan-made music.

And that's my issue. The specific definition is too specific, the broad definition is too broad, and the wiki flip-flops between the two from entry to entry. That's why I support the decision to split.

I confess that TV Tropes is the only reason I'm familiar with the term "filk" at all, but if this is one of those things that spawns No True Scotsman arguments over what counts as "true filk", then that explains a lot.

With that out of the way, and with the knowledge that nobody can agree on the definition, I'm starting to think we don't need to take any action here.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 6th 2022 at 9:46:42 AM

But if something doesn't have a definition, is it really a trope?

Don't get me wrong, I believe the concept is tropeworthy, but not if we cannot pinpoint its definition. The point I'm trying to make is that we need to make sure we can all agree on what it means. We don't want an article that leaves you more confused than you already are. Most people nowadays probably don't even know what "Filk" even is, and those people cannot receive mixed information on what the term's definition is.

In short, if "filk" means "fan music", why isn't it called that? If filk is its own thing, why are all the other kinds of fan music lumped with it?

Edited by AoeAbility on Apr 6th 2022 at 8:05:28 AM

The only suggestion I see in the thread (I admit I'm not versed in the discussed topic) is drafting a Super-Trope Fan Music for Filk Song, Heavy Mithril, Nerdcore, and adjusting Filk Song's description accordingly.

If not other ideas are present I suppose we can later crowner with it.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 18th 2022 at 8:46:19 PM

Well, since this thread was brought back from the Morgue, I think I'd like to wait at least three days from today (the 21st) before making a crowner. The clock can be extended or shut off in three days if necessary.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 18th 2022 at 12:49:54 PM

Bit of an update:

I believe that the thread might have contacted some trouble mainly because Crazysamaritan had an issue with what is being discussed here. I thought of a potential compromise, that could be used as one of the options for the crowner.

The (optional, alternate) idea is to rewrite the page for Filk Song to be about the general definition, and add an analysis/useful notes page for the specific definition, common elements of filk as a genre/community, and information on the mixed opinions as to what the term actually means. This way, we would not have to remove any examples from the main page, and the basic term will remain mostly intact.

It's not an option that I support (not fully, at least), but I am willing to consider it, for the sake of Crazysamaritan and others who do not agree with option #1.

Some other suggestions I have been considering for both propositions:

• In the case of option #2, renaming the article to Fan Music being optional
• Sorting the general definition page by "creators who consistently make music based on other media" and "specific songs made by any creator, based on other media".
• Fan Music and Filk Song (or the main article and the analysis/useful notes for hardline option #2) sharing entries, but the latter only including confirmed filk songs and creators.

Edited by AoeAbility on Apr 18th 2022 at 12:04:28 PM

FWIW I am 100% on board with a Fan Music supertrope.

Is there anything that needs to be done before we can start a crowner? Just wondering.

Edited by AoeAbility on Apr 22nd 2022 at 8:40:02 AM

Post the options you want it to have and I or another mod can make it. The clock will be shut off after it's made.

Here are all the possibilities I see so far:

• Create a Fan Music supertrope, covering the general term of "making music based on other works" with Filk Song, Heavy Mithril, and Nerdcore as sub-tropes.
• Same as above, but instead make Filk Song an Analysis/Useful Notes page for the community and debate over what the term actually means.
• Rework Filk Song entirely.

Feel free to add more suggestions.

Edited by AoeAbility on Apr 22nd 2022 at 12:40:06 PM

Alright then. Should we create a sandbox?

Fan Music

I've started on the sandbox, and put in a couple examples from the 'found filk' section of Filk Song (as those are songs of varying genres from artists who do not themselves define their work as filk). So far I figured to sort by parent-work the same way we do fanfics, but if someone has a better idea how to organize it I'm all ears.

The definition that you are using for Filk Song is more narrow than its use outside this wiki.

I mean it sounds like there isn't one solid definition of filk that's being used outside the wiki. In your post, you're citing three separate mutually exclusive definitions, and I basically went with the third one. Which one do you want to use?

Edited by Orbiting on Apr 25th 2022 at 12:07:09 PM

I think the "three separate definitions" thing is the problem at hand. By using one of them, we're arbitrarily saying that it's "more correct" than the other ones.

I provided an alternate solution of turning Filk Song into an Useful Notes/Analysis page previously. Do you think we should go with that?

After all, for something to be a trope, it needs to have a clear definition, which, from what I'm getting, Filk doesn't have.

Edited by AoeAbility on Apr 25th 2022 at 9:29:57 AM

Isn't it more of a genre? From what I understand, genres aren't tropes, they're a collection of tropes that get used together commonly enough to develop a unique genre identity. You wouldn't call Horror a trope, or Sitcom a trope, so why call Filk Song a trope?

I suppose you can say that it's just a trope for individual songs and not entire musical genre, but it seems like it could be defined as a genre in and of itself, so... yeah.

How's this as a possible definition for the fan music page?

Filk: A genre of fan music orginated by the science fiction fandom in the 1950s, heavily influenced by folk music.