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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1601: Aug 7th 2022 at 4:40:38 PM

It would make a lot of sense for certain of their agents, like Deever, to be motivated by glory-seeking: the desire to look like the hero by taking down dangerous individuals.

I keep going on about this, but I really hope we learn more about Damage Control's motivations during She-Hulk. They don't really need a lot of examination in Ms. Marvel because their role in the story isn't to be complex villains but to represent a combination of "society vs. supers" and "society vs. Muslims". But in a show that is specifically about how society treats supers, it's a natural fit.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#1602: Aug 7th 2022 at 5:03:42 PM

Seems like they're just a wannabe, far less competent SHIELD. Hell, there's probably some Hydra remnants involved.

ZheToralf Floating Advice Reminder from somewhere in Germany Since: Dec, 2009
#1603: Aug 7th 2022 at 5:08:07 PM

Yeah, shield would have been so much better equipped for this.

You lost!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1604: Aug 7th 2022 at 5:18:20 PM

Fury would at least be subtle about it

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#1605: Aug 7th 2022 at 5:52:19 PM

[up]X4 Whereas I hope they don't really touch on it, because every time they do it just draws attention to the Necessary Weasel of government incompetence/malice in superhero fiction.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1606: Aug 7th 2022 at 6:56:17 PM

[up] The question has to come up, eventually, right? You can't just keep ignoring it. She-Hulk looks like it'll be answering most of those questions, which is perfect for the character because she'd much rather be a lawyer than a superhero.

[up][up][up] Well, remember what happened to SHIELD. Extrajudicial government agencies don't remain on the good side for long in the MCU. More to the point, we don't know that Damage Control is entirely made up of assholes. We know Deever is an asshole, but Cleary seems at least semi-reasonable. Incompetence I'll grant.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 7th 2022 at 10:02:54 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#1607: Aug 7th 2022 at 7:07:49 PM

What part of She-Hulk looks like it'll be answering that question? I honestly don't think the question will come up at all. They can absolutely keep ignoring it, they've basically been ignoring it since 2008.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1608: Aug 7th 2022 at 7:11:18 PM

The fact that we know Damage Control is going to be in She-Hulk based on the trailers, plus the fact that Jen will be acting as an attorney for incarcerated supers. You don't have to be a genius to add one and one together.

Now, maybe the show will focus more on Jen than on the actual legal environment, but it is going to be a courtroom comedy so there had better be some "real" lawyering or I'll throw my toys.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#1609: Aug 7th 2022 at 7:19:27 PM

I mean, dozens of shows have a law enforcement agency in it and a defense lawyer as the main character, few of them focus on the agencies motivations or inner workings. Damage Control seems to have replaced SHIELD, so they are there to arrest and escort super villains around.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1610: Aug 7th 2022 at 7:21:51 PM

And hopefully Jen will be tackling their legal justifications for incarcerating said supers. She doesn't have to give gamma radiation polygraph tests to DoDC agents, but whoever is arguing the government's side is hopefully going to be making some arguments, during which we will learn the government's side of things.

At least she might want to bring up that their agents recently shot at a bunch of teenagers in front of a school in full view of the public. You know, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe has some show-to-show continuity.

(Well, maybe not. It's too recent and they might be wary of cross-show spoilers. It's not like Ms. Marvel makes any attempt to establish continuity with other Phase 4 properties.)

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 7th 2022 at 10:24:46 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Chaosjunction Since: Feb, 2010
#1611: Aug 7th 2022 at 8:37:16 PM

[up][up]

I think SWORD is more of a replacement for SHIELD though: an agency with access to super technology, super powered people who operates in relatively the same lane as the heroes and will sometimes be in conflict with them but sometimes help them.

Damage Control comes across as a replacement for the police more than anything: an incompetent government agency prone to abuses of power that are more realistic than usual and serves as roadblocks for the heroes, never any sort of help.

This is a way for the MCU to do "cut from the headlines: types of storylines like we see in Ms. Marvel without involving the police, which would inevitably piss off some people.

Look at what we see of Damage Control in this show, their offices look like something you would expect to see out of any normal government body, as opposed to the super high tech work areas we see from SHIELD, like the helicarriers, etc. the tech they use is mostly commonplace as well. If they didn't identify themselves as Damage Control, you could easily mistake them as cops.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1612: Aug 7th 2022 at 8:56:39 PM

DoDC does have access to Stark tech, like the EDITH drones it confiscated from Peter as well as the sonic cannons that look like they were derived from anti-Hulk weapons. But unlike a more high-tech agency like SHIELD or SWORD, DoDC employs those weapons in a manner similar to how a SWAT team operates. They're clearly effective, as they stun Clandestines, break Kamala's shields, and knock Kamala and Kamran around like ten-pins.

Damage Control clearly has some kind of superior jurisdiction or it wouldn't be able to walk into mosques and order cops around, and someone like Matt Murdock wouldn't have to apply their lawyer skills to get Pete and buddies out of dock. The only thing that makes sense is that it's received a mandate as the U.S. enforcement arm of the Sokovia Accords.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 7th 2022 at 11:58:53 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#1613: Aug 7th 2022 at 10:04:00 PM

Personally, Damage Control was the worst part of the show for me and I actually was bored to tears during the last episode for it. Damage Control and the general function they have in super-media is something I'm loathe to because they'll never ever develop it because they hit a brick wall every time.

Super-Hero stories, reasonably, realize that the government would have a problem with super-heroes and probably try to interfere. That there will be tension because a vigilante figure who answers to no one and agents of the government.

But then said Government Agency *has* to be the bad guy. They're another antagonist for our heroes. But then said Government Agent has to do something ACTUALLY villainous to cross a line for our hero to confront. Say... in Ms. Marvel chasing a bunch of children into a school and firing on them.

But then the work has to double-back and make sure that these actions reflect *only* on the individual that gave the order. Hence we have the moment where the "Good Government Agent" tells the "Bad Government Agent" to pull out and not do anything and the "Bad One" disobeys orders anyway.

It's a convenient way for the narrative to cop out that the Government itself isn't the bad guy, just the actions of a single agent within the government. "See, this one guy tried to do good but the bad guy didn't listen to his orders".

And it annoys me because it can never ever go anywhere else. So it endlessly repeats over and over and over again with a near copy-paste of the same beats.

I get why they don't develop it further; because the next logical step is "Hey, maybe the government who's departments are chasing super-teens into schools and firing upon them and we keep doing this song and dance every few years... maybe they're morally corrupt/evil?" and "Hey, maybe the government is kinda evil" is not a plotline they want to develop.

So... why repeat the whole "Government kinda doesn't like Supers" plotline every time??? If you can't develop it, can we just drop repeating it instead?

The writers know well enough that gov wouldn't like super-heroes, but doesn't know what to do with them as an actually developed antagonistic figure and it drives me nuts.

I also kinda felt like they tried to do Kamran dirty by having him lash out at the police and... nah, I'm with Kamran. If they're gonna willingly obey orders to fire guns at a bunch of innocent teenagers... fuck 'um. Fight back as hard as you need.

The show tries to show him being reckless and look at the collateral damage he's doing, but doesn't give Kamala's powers and actions the same consideration? It felt like it was trying to criticize Kamran when the same arguments apply to Kamala, just her collateral damage is after the cameras change frame.

Sorry for the paragraphs. It's something that really annoyed me about the show even a month after binging it because I loved Episodes 4-5 and then 6 was such a letdown for me.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1614: Aug 7th 2022 at 10:17:11 PM

I have no idea why they couldn't go with actual villains from Kamala rogues galley instead of generic government fucks

I guess they were just unwilling to dive into the fun super stuff that Kamala's all about

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#1615: Aug 7th 2022 at 11:57:54 PM

[up][up] Thing with superhero stories is, most of them ride the Cool People Rebel Against Authority train. Any Reasonable Authority Figure who sticks around for long will be turned into an asshole (and may be retconned into always having been an asshole) so that the heroes will be justified in telling them to suck it.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#1616: Aug 8th 2022 at 12:22:22 AM

I have past voiced my distaste for the cliches of heroes being rebellious mavericks who thumb their nose at accountability and lawmakers… but also feel it’s totally justified here in the case of Muslim heroes being targeted by actively malicious law enforcers. John McClane and Kamala Khan rebelling against the authorities have two very different contexts.

InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#1617: Aug 8th 2022 at 1:39:08 AM

And I get that. I know a lot of people (especially people I work with) feel seen by the ways muslims were portrayed in the series and specifically their treatment at the hands of government agents who look down and disrespect them.

I just get frustrated because its the same beats over and over and it's can't reasonably develop anywhere because "Hey, maybe the government is bad actually" isn't something Marvel would want to touch.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#1618: Aug 8th 2022 at 2:46:06 AM

Honestly, Kamran does absolutely nothing villainous or wrong until the very last minutes of the show, at which point Damage Control has long already been the one attacking first. Before that, the biggest damages are ironically caused by Damage Control. Bruno's appartment blowing up? That was a Damage Control Drone, Kamran himself did nothing except defend himself and Bruno.

FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#1619: Aug 8th 2022 at 5:06:07 AM

Well, he was involved in a superpowered breakout of the facilities that likely injured or killed several agents along the way. Yes, he was basically apprehended for being on the scene of an event rather than actually participating, and if I recall correctly, he was a pretty passive participant in the escape, but there's a reason why Wrongful Accusation Insurance doesn't work in the real world. Resisting arrest has consequences even if you're innocent, moreso for breaking out of prison afterwards.

Edited by FuzzyBoots on Aug 8th 2022 at 8:07:00 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1620: Aug 8th 2022 at 5:21:03 AM

I went to the effort of tallying up all of the damages caused by various parties throughout the show and posted it here. Kamran's primary offenses are prison escape, assaulting law enforcement officers, attempted murder, and resisting arrest. There's also the nebulous "being an unregistered super" thing that the Sokovia Accords hang over everyone's heads, but we can ignore that for now.

Kamala for her part does virtually nothing wrong aside from resisting arrest and harboring a fugitive. All of her violent actions are in self-defense or in defense of others. She'd get off scot free given even a slightly decent lawyer.

All of these defense arguments would hinge on Damage Control's actual legal authority. Can it snatch "enhanced individuals" off the streets and lock them up without legal representation? Do the Accords allow governments to suspend habeas corpus and due process? Can it shoot at people whose primary offense is not wanting to be black-bagged and experimented on?

These are important questions, which is why I hope She-Hulk addresses some of them.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2022 at 9:09:47 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#1622: Aug 8th 2022 at 9:06:11 AM

[up][up] We shouldn't be so quick to assume that they were being denied due process. While everyone who's arrested is entitled to a lawyer, it's not like there's going to be a lawyer waiting for you when you get to the jail. You have to ask for a lawyer first, for one thing, and it can take a while for them to get there.

After Civil War, people were saying the folks locked up on the Raft were being detained without a trial or access to a lawyer. Then we got Ant-Man and the Wasp, and saw that they must have gotten legal representation, because Scott was able to get a plea deal and walk away with one year's house arrest.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1623: Aug 8th 2022 at 9:35:02 AM

The Clandestines are properly arrested at the wedding because they are engaged in criminal behavior, and we don't see any indication that they are willing to wait for due process before breaking out. Kamran is not a party to their original crime but he is a party to the breakout. At that point he becomes a fugitive.

Similarly, in Infinity War it appears that Steve and company broke out of the Raft rather than, as Scott did, waiting for trial... or maybe they were tried and sentenced but escaped that sentence. We don't really know.

We see Cleary and Deever interrogate minors without lawyers present, although the point has been made that Miranda rights technically only apply to someone who is under arrest, not merely being questioned. Still, this is at the very least fairly shady and wouldn't fly in PR.

While Kamran is a fugitive he is tracked by drones. This is probably not illegal, but when one of those drones fires a missile at a civilian place of business, with a civilian present, a massive line is crossed. As if that weren't perfectly clear, when Cleary calls off Deever over PR concerns and she disobeys, she no longer has legal authority.

So, does Damage Control have the technical authority to act as they do in this show? Probably, up to the point where Deever's drone attempts to kill a civilian and when Deever commits insubordination.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 8th 2022 at 12:38:20 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1624: Aug 8th 2022 at 10:03:23 AM

Similarly, in Infinity War it appears that Steve and company broke out of the Raft rather than, as Scott did, waiting for trial... or maybe they were tried and sentenced but escaped that sentence. We don't really know.

At the end of Civil War, Steve breaks into the Raft - presumably to break the others out. The implication with Scott is that he declined to be broken out because he didn't want to be a fugitive.

FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#1625: Aug 8th 2022 at 10:31:12 AM

Playing mild Devil's Advocate, my memory of the episode was that Kamran spotted the drone, fired a beam at it, and then the explosion happened. That sounds a bit like the drone fired back on an attacker (or a suspected one since it wouldn't have known for certain if that was deadly beam, and scanning beam, or a kindness beam) before it was hit, which is something that is often covered by law, especially for law enforcement. Admittedly, with the broad range of powers in the MCU, that opens up some very ugly possibilities of pointing being treated as brandishing a weapon for the purpose of self defense, even worse than our current situation where you have to worry about a toy gun, or a wallet, being seen as a weapon, justifying deadly force by the police.

On the more depressing note, aside from that it's historically been very difficult to get the police to pay for damage they've caused (although I do remember a recent victory from where a SWAT team assaulted the wrong house and were found liable for damages), the drone's black box would probably support that the damage to the shop was only caused because the drone was attacked, causing a misfire, or at least a bad aiming of its attack, which means Bruno's family has little recourse outside of maybe their insurance policy.


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