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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1576: Jul 30th 2022 at 9:56:12 AM

Maybe we'll learn more in the August 3 making-of documentary on Disney+.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#1577: Jul 30th 2022 at 9:58:32 AM

My gut says Lucasfilm might be involved.

Both Marvel and Lucasfilm are absolutely churning out television series on Disney+ right now, and both are doing so not just to have some tv content - but for the same reason: establishment and worldbuilding. Both Star Wars and Marvel are focusing on using tv shows as set up for as many characters as they can without having to put everyone (or in Lucasfilm's case, anyone) up on the theatrical chopping block.

This means lots of tv shows from each, but while Disney is fine with some overlap between them they clearly don't want the Marvel and Star Wars shows running completely at the same time. Some shows being shorter than others thus mean more shows can be put out per year, even if it means less robust stories and the characters themselves don't excel in that kind of format.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1578: Jul 30th 2022 at 10:00:04 AM

In my experience working in the field (granted, in a much more limited capacity than anything close to a streaming giant), you pitch the show with a estimative of how many episodes you expect to get and a ballpark of how much it'll cost, but this pitch comes with a pre-built assumption that it's a work in progress that might change. The studio might greenlight it but go "yeah 10 episodes doesn't work for us, make it 5" or vice-versa. But I'm used to pitching things, not being sought out to make them. The Disney+ approach seems to have a pre-conceived notion of what show they need and then getting people to do them.

Who knows how it works in the hallowed halls of Disney+ though.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 30th 2022 at 10:01:36 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1579: Aug 1st 2022 at 2:12:18 AM

A thing we must remember is that the six episodes have a length of around 45 minutes which is often the length of two 22-minute episodes plus an extra minute. So the writers and directors have a good deal of time to write a story for each episode. Speaking personally I wouldn't want MS.Marvel to be 9 episodes long just because it would end up with the mystery of the bangle just becoming frustrating and more of the clandestine ( I have nothing against them, they were good villains because they were so human that their violent desperation gave me chills, but there weren't entertaning due to a lack of dynamic within the group.)

Whilst we will have to wait to see from She-Hulk (which I am excited for) the extra episode count might work better as it is more episodic in nature, from what I have heard.

Sincerely S Awatching.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1580: Aug 4th 2022 at 2:14:21 PM

We have a Pitch Meeting for Ms. Marvel!

Again, Ryan is being quite kind to these shows. I guess he's not trying to poke the beehive, since it's not Ms. Marvel's fault that it was put up against Obi-Wan Kenobi. The plot issues he calls out are all perfectly fair. The best bit, however, is when he interprets the conclusion of the big battle at the school as Kamala punching a hole straight through the Earth to Pakistan. That puts a whole new spin on Kamala's powers, doesn't it?

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 4th 2022 at 5:15:01 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1581: Aug 4th 2022 at 3:49:44 PM

I don't know if this is what he meant, but while watching the finale I thought "well, just run on down to the harbor and it'll be smooth sailing from there" felt very "super easy barely an inconvenience".

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 4th 2022 at 5:49:55 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1582: Aug 4th 2022 at 3:52:34 PM

Yes, and the school plot to fight off DoDC was very much not super easy, barely an inconvenience. Missed opportunity.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1583: Aug 4th 2022 at 4:09:48 PM

Oh, no, i meant after she does her whole heroic stand. Kamran just kinda...runs away and we assume gets on a boat and that we...assume makes it to Pakistan ? Logistics?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1584: Aug 4th 2022 at 4:13:31 PM

Yes, that is quite the Hand Wave, and I agree it would have been a more appropriate "super easy, barely an inconvenience" moment.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#1585: Aug 4th 2022 at 5:38:02 PM

I don't go in for behind the scenes stuff myself but I think the Ms Marvel episode of Assembled is out on D+?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1587: Aug 5th 2022 at 5:24:26 PM

Double Post, since the thread is lagging.

First, I did watch the documentary last night. It's quite good. Filming the dance sequence in Episode 3 looks like it must have been a ton of fun. They spend a fair bit of time talking about Aramis Knight, who plays Kareem (Red Dagger). He's an accomplished martial artist so he did most of his own action scenes, which made them feel a lot more real.

Unfortunately, Iman Vellani is not a stunt actor, so she had to be doubled quite a bit. I'd like to say I didn't notice while watching the show, but I did. Oh, well.

One of the reasons why Western audiences may find some of the cinematography and pacing unusual is because a deliberate decision was made to hire directors who work on Indian and Pakistani media. There are a lot of intentional Bollywood influences.

Something that surprised me was just how many of the shots were CG, especially the backgrounds. Even so, most of the sets were practical. The Partition train set, for example, was almost completely practical and they had 500 extras for it. The "heritage walk" street in Karachi was done outdoors in Bangkok and it too was built to resemble the actual location.

The wizardry of these folks is fantastic. We also see in the documentary several of the costume ideas and power concepts for Kamala, but from the start they wanted her to be distinct from Reed Richards. She needed her own visual personality.


The Direct published an interview with writer Fatimah Asghar about some outstanding fan questions.

  • She doesn't know what's next for Kamala and her friends, at least not past The Marvels. All of the writers are just as eager to find out as we are. Showrunner Bisha K. Ali probably has a better idea, but she's not talking.
  • As we thought, a lot of the Clandestines' backstory was cut from the final show. Asghar doesn't talk about why that decision was made. It could have been for pacing: Episode 5, for example, spends two thirds of its runtime with Kamala offscreen, but it's also the shortest.
  • I guessed correctly that both Aisha and Najma, in their dying moments, use their Noor energy to put forth a "wish" or "prayer" into the world. For Aisha, it is to get her family on the train. For Najma, it is to give Kamran the power that is his birthright.
  • The Clandestines were always going to be finished in Episode 5, leaving Episode 6 to be about Kamran and Damage Control.
  • Everyone on the show loves the Red Daggers and wants to see more of them. Yes, their story does go beyond merely dealing with the Noor dimension, but it was important to keep the show focused on that rather than go off on tangents.
  • "The MCU is very good at tracking all their rules." So yes, the time travel plot is totally fine; we don't know all the rules yet because they haven't told us. Fair enough.
  • The Partition is a critical part of the story because it is so heartfelt for so many of the people making the show. Having Kamala and her family tied to it was always part of the concept, as was having her visit Pakistan (which also happens in the comics).

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 5th 2022 at 8:27:04 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#1588: Aug 5th 2022 at 8:59:15 PM

Unfortunately, Iman Vellani is not a stunt actor, so she had to be doubled quite a bit. I'd like to say I didn't notice while watching the show, but I did. Oh, well.

Once you notice all the times that Black Widow is shot from the back and inexplicably gets more muscular during action scenes, you can never unsee it. tongue

FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#1589: Aug 6th 2022 at 12:38:28 PM

Corridor Digital has had a few of the MCU stunt people on, including at least one for Black Widow. Reportedly, one of the issues for the female stunt performers is the difficulty of wearing the necessary padding with so much exposed flesh, as well as dealing with the inevitable scrapes and cuts on said exposed surfaces.

Adeptus Since: Aug, 2022
#1590: Aug 7th 2022 at 3:10:59 AM

I think the last episode was absurd. Instead of the wholesome message "Muslims and immigrants can be decent citizens, don't pick on them," we got the absurd message "Yeah, Muslim immigrants are interfering with the legitimate authority in pursuing a dangerous member of a super villain group who escaped from prison. They have the right to do it, because they are a minority and nothing should be done about it, because that would be racism." And the scene in which civilians help Kamran, who literally moments ago almost killed them, escape.... and the police join them.... is an absolute absurdity.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1591: Aug 7th 2022 at 5:01:41 AM

That’s a weird take. So it’s totally cool with you that Damage Control is arresting teenagers and detaining them indefinitely without trial in a black prison site?

Also the community is protecting Kamala, not Kamran. He’s gone by the time they human-shield her.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 7th 2022 at 8:48:18 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#1592: Aug 7th 2022 at 6:03:20 AM

Community protects kid from racist government is a bad thing?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#1593: Aug 7th 2022 at 6:30:16 AM

[up][up][up]Putting aside the other problems with this, you're assuming they know what Kamran's done, which...they don't? Also, Kamran himself hasn't actually done much of anything, you're attributing the acts of the Clandestine, which he directly opposed to him. He wasn't actually part of the attack on the wedding (which almost no one saw, anyway).

What the community knows is that he and 'Night Light' are being attacked and they rally to defend her. Everything else is secondary.

[down]Also that.

Edited by ECD on Aug 7th 2022 at 10:05:25 AM

Krory Since: Aug, 2012
#1594: Aug 7th 2022 at 9:21:14 AM

Why would you be surprised that the Feds are portrayed as the bad guys? It's the MCU. Government=bad has been a thing since the very beginning.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1595: Aug 7th 2022 at 12:58:33 PM

There is a valid argument to make, and many of us have made it, that Kamran is a legitimate threat to society during the final episode because of his inability to control his powers. If Damage Control has legal authority to detain unregistered enhanced individuals under the Sokovia Accords, then it would certainly be able to make a case to bring him in.

He's also a prison escapee with a charge of assaulting a law enforcement officer, although again the legitimacy of these charges depends on the legitimacy of DoDC's apprehension of him in the first place. It doesn't seem like anyone was in a hurry to get the Clandestines legal counsel, for example. (This point is something I expect She-Hulk to explore in detail.)

Anyway, the issue here isn't Deever's authority per se; it is her exceeding that authority via warrantless searches, excessive use of force, and unjustified escalation. As just one example, trying to "black bag" Kamala and Kamran rather than sit down and talk to them with their parents or legal representation present is grossly unethical.

How would you feel if you suddenly got powers and then a bunch of federal agents with guns showed up and tried to shove you in their black van? It's entirely reasonable to fight back out of fear that you would be "disappeared" and tortured or experimented on.

It's one thing if the enhanced individual is engaged in active harm to others. I was practically rooting for DoDC when they busted the Clandestines during Aamir's wedding. They acted as The Cavalry, even if unwittingly. But the rest of their actions betray deep incompetence and Deever herself willfully escalates the conflict on multiple occasions. There is no excuse for sending a missile-armed drone into a civilian environment. It doesn't matter if it was retaliating against Kamran's attack; it's utterly insane.

Then, given Damage Control's proven willingness to kill civilians in order to "capture" a super, why would Kamran or Kamala trust them at all? And then Deever orders lethal rounds fired at two teenagers! This is the kind of thing that gets put front and center on national media for weeks... alongside demons attacking Manhattan, dimensional incursions over the Statue of Liberty, and planet-sized aliens emerging from the depths of the Indian Ocean before being frozen into stone, I guess.

In summary, almost all of the threat that Kamran represents is instigated by Deever, and Kamala is patently not a threat to anyone once she gets her powers under control. All DoDC needed to do was send a nice, well-mannered person into Kamala's community to meet her — with a lawyer present! — discuss her rights and responsibilities under the Accords, and offer her vocational counseling. But then it would be the X-Men, not a future antagonist of the X-Men, as seems likely.

Overall, the MCU seems to be making the point that superheroes need to work independently from governments and their representatives. This message is by necessity a bit heavy-handed, achieved by having said governments be corrupt, incompetent, overzealous, or some combination of the three. I would have sided with Tony over the Accords, at least in principle, if he hadn't decided to be such an asshole, but there you go.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 7th 2022 at 4:05:05 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#1596: Aug 7th 2022 at 3:16:17 PM

Even if the suspect in question actually is dealing drugs, it's still not okay for police to shoot him seventeen times in the back. Especially if they shoot up a high school to get to him.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 7th 2022 at 3:16:49 AM

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#1597: Aug 7th 2022 at 3:22:59 PM

Extra especially if (a) they have access to non-lethal weapons that have been demonstrated to work on supers; (b) the agent in charge has been ordered to withdraw from the scene. Even if the case can be made that Kamran is a legitimate threat at that point in time, Deever is defying a direct order by engaging him.

We can observe that if DoDC were competent, they'd have taken down Kamran at the very least and probably Kamala, as well. But if they were competent it wouldn't have come to an armed confrontation in the first place. This fuckup* is one hundred percent Deever's fault... well, maybe ninety percent if it can be proven that Cleary knew she was a loose cannon when he assigned her to the case.

*Meaning the one at the school. The Clandestines are genuine villains, but they are already dead by that point.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 7th 2022 at 6:36:37 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#1598: Aug 7th 2022 at 4:16:38 PM

So, basically, a "Could Have Avoided This!" Plot.

Edited by RavenWilder on Aug 7th 2022 at 4:17:05 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#1599: Aug 7th 2022 at 4:20:09 PM

Damage Control has shown no interest in helping him control his powers and have already blown up a shop by using drones on both him as well as Ms. Marvel.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#1600: Aug 7th 2022 at 4:26:47 PM

It seems they're trying to push themselves as the law enforcement for powered people, despite being founded to clean up after alien invasions and such.

Violently apprehending someone in the right way is in their best interest, to justify why they need missile drones and violation of civil liberties.

So I don't think ever talking someone down or quietly approaching someone was in their game book.

They need to publicly look like the heroes, at least to the majority.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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