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ecss Since: Nov, 2013
#1: Feb 23rd 2022 at 9:58:43 PM

I can’t be the only one who’s noticed a bit of a tendency towards shapeshifters in recent western media being non-binary, gender fluid, etc (the one in the Amazon version of The Boys and Double Trouble from She-Ra for example) and I get that a Starfish Alien whose culture never had genders as a concept to begin with would probably identify that way in human terms, shapeshifter or no, but to what extent is it really necessary for more human characters? I mean how problematic would it be for a character with a concrete gender identity to take an opposite form temporarily?

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#2: Feb 23rd 2022 at 11:49:40 PM

... to what extent is it really necessary for more human characters?

I don't think that it's necessary at all.

I mean how problematic would it be for a character with a concrete gender identity to take an opposite form temporarily?

This would likely depend on the reasons for the character's form so changing, and how it's handled, but in and of itself I don't see a problem, personally.

Indeed, why would it be inherently problematic?

(Don't misunderstand me: I daresay that it can be handled or used in a problematic manner—but I do feel that it can likely also be handled or used in a non-problematic manner.)

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devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#3: Feb 24th 2022 at 2:05:55 AM

>I can’t be the only one who’s noticed a bit of a tendency towards shapeshifters in recent western media being non-binary, gender fluid, etc

I don't think it's really a trend of them existing, but rather that nowadays we simply have better language to describe them. I mean, Loki is an extremely old example of a gender fluid shapeshifter.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#4: Feb 24th 2022 at 2:17:29 AM

Also, practically speaking, if you can shift your shape you can shift your (physical) gender as well. Today writers are more willing to explore alternative sexualities/orientations, so I'd expect to see more stories addressing this aspect and implications.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#5: Feb 24th 2022 at 2:29:24 AM

I would also point to the plenty of "man becomes woman, decides he likes it" and vice versa stories.

Mostly, nowadays we just consider this it's own thing and call it it's own thing.

shiro_okami ...can still bite Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
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#6: Feb 26th 2022 at 5:08:24 AM

I mean how problematic would it be for a character with a concrete gender identity to take an opposite form temporarily?

Why would anything involving a shapeshifter be "concrete"? Shapeshifting is like having a liquid body that conforms to any given container. So why wouldn't a shapeshifter's gender/sexuality also be like a liquid?

I partly thought of this because every time I hear the phrase "gender fluid" I think of it as literally referring to an actual liquid (fluid made of gender).

Basically, the quote above is the exact opposite concept of a "gender fluid" person in a "concrete" body that has only one form. After all, the whole argument against "gender fluidity" is that since our bodies have only one form, so we should also have only one gender (along with the idea that the definition of gender is based on a person's sex).

Edited by shiro_okami on Feb 26th 2022 at 8:36:20 AM

TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#7: Feb 26th 2022 at 6:21:45 AM

[up] Aren't "gender fluids" basically "Testosterone and Estrogen"?

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#8: Feb 26th 2022 at 7:39:07 AM

[up][up] Conversely, why should a change to one's body necessarily change one's mind, and thus gender-identity? In some works, it may be that The Mind Is a Plaything of the Body, but it doesn't necessarily hold for all, I believe. Especially in those cases in which gender is spiritual rather than neurological—or, simply, in which shapeshifters don't change their brains.

[up] In this context, I believe that "gender fluid" means "having a gender that is fluid"—i.e. one that changes.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 26th 2022 at 5:40:40 PM

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shiro_okami ...can still bite Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
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#9: Feb 26th 2022 at 7:42:56 AM

In case of someone who had the form of the opposite sex forced on them, I was thinking of Tiresias. Part of his myth is that he experienced sexual intercourse as both man and woman, having been a woman for seven years before being turned back to man, as he was originally. Apparently he was straight as either sex (having children while a woman), so apparently the gods switched his sexuality along with his sex.

Edited by shiro_okami on Feb 26th 2022 at 10:43:44 AM

devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#10: Feb 26th 2022 at 1:04:48 PM

[up][up]>Conversely, why should a change to one's body necessarily change one's mind, and thus gender-identity?

I think the point is that a shape-shifter would pretty much be genderfluid by default as their physical form is easily mutable. It's different if, say, it's involuntary shapeshifting or when the shapeshifting is done in other means. E.g. Gods can frequently shape-shift, but then gods are also often strange beings with ill-defined physical characteristics.

But a shapeshifter who has a solid gender identity of one kind and takes the body of a different kind, would simply be trans.

[up]By our standards he would probably be bisexual, but the greek had very different ideas about sexuality back then. There's not necessarily a sexuality change involved.

Edited by devak on Feb 26th 2022 at 10:06:02 AM

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#11: Feb 26th 2022 at 1:42:42 PM

In case of someone who had the form of the opposite sex forced on them, ...

I'll confess that I tend to assume that the term "shapeshifter" applies primarily to those whose transformations are not directly imposed by outside actors.

I was thus not considering those transformed by others—they would be another story, I think.

]... I was thinking of Tiresias. Part of his myth is that he experienced sexual intercourse as both man and woman, having been a woman for seven years before being turned back to man, as he was originally.

And that's fair. But for one, I wouldn't call Tiresias a "shapeshifter"—Tiresias was someone who was transformed, if I have it aright.

And in any case, the fact of one gender-fluid shapeshifter wouldn't to my mind imply that shapeshifters are inherently disposed to being genderfluid.

]Apparently he was straight as either sex (having children while a woman), so apparently the gods switched his sexuality along with his sex.

And that's fair—but, well, it could have been the doing of the gods. Perhaps they changed both Tiresias' sex and gender.

(Or perhaps Tiresias was just bi, but inclined to go with the default for their current form. Or just bent to social pressure.)

I think the point is that a shape-shifter would pretty much be genderfluid by default as their physical form is easily mutable.

But isn't the point of gender identity as separate from biological sex that gender is not of the body? That it's possible to have a body of one sex, but yet have a gender of another? Or, indeed, a body of one sex and a gender that varies?

If so, then why should one change if the other does?

It seems to me, then, that a shapeshifter's gender could well have the same variation as found in non-shapeshifter humans: some male, some female, some fluid, some agender, and so on and so forth.

But a shapeshifter who has a solid gender identity of one kind and takes the body of a different kind, would simply be trans.

Would be at times trans, I would rather say. But yes, overall.

By our standards he would probably be bisexual, but the greek had very different ideas about sexuality back then.

This is, I imagine, also true.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 26th 2022 at 11:43:51 AM

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shiro_okami ...can still bite Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
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#12: Feb 26th 2022 at 6:35:46 PM

[up] I brought up Involuntary Shapeshifting to cover all possible answers to the OP's question and because it's the only scenario I can think of where the body's sex and person's sexuality might not match if the one imposing the shapeshifting did a botched up job.

If shapeshifting is a character's intrinsic superpower, I would expect that changing sexuality to match is a Required Secondary Power if they can hold alternate forms for a long time.

Edited by shiro_okami on Feb 26th 2022 at 9:41:42 AM

devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#13: Feb 26th 2022 at 10:43:55 PM

To give a bit more context on Tiresias, the greek approached sexuality mostly based on who did the penetration. A dude banging a dude or a woman was functionally identical provided he was the one doing the penetration. The inverse would thus also be true for Tiresias.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#14: Feb 27th 2022 at 11:40:50 AM

I brought up Involuntary Shapeshifting to cover all possible answers to the OP's question ...

Hmm... Okay, that's fair. Involuntary shapeshifting is still shapeshifting, I suppose.

... and because it's the only scenario I can think of where the body's sex and person's sexuality might not match if the one imposing the shapeshifting did a botched up job.

I mean, we have non-shapeshifting human beings today who have sexual identities that don't match their bodies.

Given that, I see no reason that, given shapeshifters, we shouldn't see shapeshifters whose sexual identities don't match their bodies at a given time.

If shapeshifting is a character's intrinsic superpower, I would expect that changing sexuality to match is a Required Secondary Power if they can hold alternate forms for a long time.

This is the point on which I disagree: I see no significant reason that a shapeshifter changing biological sex should change their sexual identity.

Again, if sexual identity as separate from bodily sex is real—and I see no good reason to discount it—then a change to the body shouldn't cause a change to the sexual identity.

It's not quite the same thing, but as a "closest available comparison", a person transitioning via surgery and hormones doesn't—as far as I'm aware—change their sexuality.

That said, if you're taking the view that sexual identity is not distinct from biological sex, then our views differ on the axiomatic level, and it might preferable for us to just agree to disagree.

To give a bit more context on Tiresias, the greek approached sexuality mostly based on who did the penetration. A dude banging a dude or a woman was functionally identical provided he was the one doing the penetration. The inverse would thus also be true for Tiresias.

I'll confess that my knowledge here is shaky, but that does seem to match my impression of the matter, indeed.

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