Needs Help: Knife Nut

To-do list: Move examples that fit one of the tropes on the Knife Nut disambiguation page and remove ones that don't, such as characters who wield a knife with no further meaning.

Knife Nut is a trope that has already been discussed prior, with an entire Trope Talk Thread unable to figure out the correct definition. This didn't bode well, and the Knife Nut Wick Check done by myself and Crossover-Enthusiast shows similar issues. Before we get further into the discussion, here's the quick results:

• Knives as a Weapon of Choice: 20/79 or 25%
• Unhinged Knife User: 11/79 or 14%
• Knife Fetishization: 2/79 or 3%
• General Knife Usage: 12/79 or 15%
• ZCE: 24/79 or 30%
• Other: 10/79 or 13%

Besides ZCEs, the most common form of usage is describing a character who uses knives as their Weapon Of Choice. However, this only makes up about a quarter of the overall wick check, and presumably, a quarter of the usage the trope receives. Granted, that's still about 1500 wicks, so that's not too bad- however, I also question the tropeability of a trope that's just "WOC, but with knives". The categories that actually implied something behind the usage, Unhinged and Fetishization, only make up a much smaller percentage, but have tropeworthy meanings behind them and the use of the knives.

Then there's the ZCE...Which leads me to believe this is suffering similar issues that appearance tropes do. That is, people will pothole it and use it without context and without meaning, but "Character Uses a Knife" isn't a trope as much as "Character Is Blonde" isn't a trope.

Some options, not all of them mutually exclusive:

• We could redefine this as "Character uses Knives as a Weapon Of Choice", assuming that's tropeworthy
• We could split off the "Unhinged Knife User" aspect and maybe the "Fetishization" aspect into tropes of their own, or redefine this trope to mean one of those things
• This trope could be cut or disambiged

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 16th 2022 at 6:24:17 AM

It appears this thread has been stealth opened.

for option 2 and disambig. I can see the value in the possible tropes to split, and I think a disambig would be good for a confusing trope like this.

That could be included in the disambig.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 6th 2022 at 4:11:36 AM

Since I always took Knife Nut for "stabbing and slicing maniac/sadist", I prefer "knives as Weapon Of Choice" examples be moved to their own trope similar to Heroes Prefer Swords.

Edited by Amonimus on Feb 6th 2022 at 12:13:31 PM

Is there some deeper split in Knives as Weapon Of Choice? Like for Thieves and other sneaky-types?

There might be? It's been nearly a year since I did that wick check, so I'd need to skim back through if we want to find sub-patterns.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 6th 2022 at 4:13:09 AM

I don’t think retooling Knife Nut into a subtrope of Weapon Of Choice will solve anything. Weapon Of Choice tropes already enough issues with ZCE and the like.

I will be ok with with trope transplanting Knife Nut into a trope for unhinged knife users. If we find enough examples for "Knife fetishization" we can make trope for that concept as well.

Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 6th 2022 at 4:14:13 AM

I'm a little worried that a Knife Wielding Thief concept might attract ZCEs, but perhaps it could work.

Knife Nut might work as a name for the concept you're describing, I agree.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 6th 2022 at 4:14:12 AM

I like option two since that's how I took this trope as well.

I agree with retooling Knife Nut as "unhinged knife wielder", and I think the connotations of knives as being sneaky, underhanded weapons might make "knife as a weapon of choice" tropeworthy.

I'm concerned about keeping the name Knife Nut mostly because of how its already being used. A retool won't do much if the misuse persists regardless.

Psychotic Knife Wielder maybe ?

It's not like we have to rename every trope that ends up in TRS. The "nut" in the title should already imply that the user is not right in the head, I'd assume the misuse are mostly shoehorns for a non-existing Weapon Of Choice trope and not the confusion, and would stop if one is made. A trope page specific to knife weapons can be good, since they are small, can be carried multiple, can be thrown, and all that combined. Whenever that works as a page is probably up for TLP.

Obviously we don't have to, but since people rarely read trope descriptions and ignore TRS actions (see how many new wicks keep getting added to completely-defunct disambigs like Not So Different and Bi The Way), people are 100% going to keep misusing this trope if all we do is a retool and cleanup. A rename is the best way to ensure people realize something changed, even if it takes more time and effort.

Currently the examples we have now aren't technically misuse; the trope is just poorly defined and vague. So people who used it one way before this thread are still going to use it that way without knowing better.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 6th 2022 at 4:26:43 AM

Besides, it's hard to say it's being misused currently, since as you mentioned, nobody has been able to hammer out a definition yet.

I'm fine with splitting off a trope for unhinged knife users and disambiguating this.

"Nut" doesn't necessarily imply "unhinged". It can also just mean someone who really likes something, and since Tropes Are Flexible, it's easy to interpret that as just anyone who appreciates the utility of a knife as a weapon.

Personally, I feel like the trope should not just focus on "unhinged", but on being sneaky and underhanded. Characters who use knives as their primary weapon are very often thieves, murderers, or assassins. It's very rare for a nice, upstanding, honorable guy to run around stabbing enemies with a knife.

The main advantages of the knife as a weapon are that it's lightweight and easy to conceal, while its weakness is its short range. Therefore, there's also an association, especially in video games, with knife-wielders being either speedy and agile, or stealthy and sneaky, which lets them close the distance with their target and either overwhelm them with Blade Spam or land a Critical Hit to a weak spot. Not sure if that could be implemented in the definition.

Hidden Weapons is a trope we have. But I assume it only overlaps if the knives are actually shown being hidden instead of just implying that purpose.

It's not always the knife that's hidden, but sometimes the wielder themself. Hidden Weapons are good for Hiding in Plain Sight, but less important for sneaking through shadows or using straight up Invisibility.

Also, Hidden Weapons seems to be specifically about hiding weapons in creative places. Keeping a knife in your pants, up your sleeves, or in your coat pocket probably doesn't count.

Yeah, a Sneaky Knife User would be an equally valid split. I can see it co-existing with Psychotic Knife User, with some occasional overlap.

An (heroic) example of the former but not the latter: the heroine of Percy Jackson and the Olympians is The Smart Guy and wields a knife because it's for quick/clever people. Very easy to tie that up with 'sneaky'.

Underhanded Hero and Good Is Not Dumb, together or something?

I only wish there was a way to let people know a trope has changed without just relying on the tag at the top of the page, which few people seem to notice or bother with.

If it were up to me, I'd make it so anything on the Ambiguity Index gets a special icon next to it, similar to what we have for Flame Bait, YMMV, and Trivia. That would instantly let everyone know that a trope is no longer used and needs to be changed.

That's been talked about a lot recently, actually.

When I mentioned to the other mods that Fan Hater was somehow YMMV despite being IUEO and NRLEP (with the discussion that followed resulting in me removing it from Audience Reactions and cleaning up YMMV subpage wicks), at least one other mod mentioned something similar for IUEO tropes being placed on YMMV pages.

That said, I'd like to have indexes for Trivia redirects and Flame Bait redirects more than more special icons, because we have YMMV Redirects so redirects to YMMV items get flagged correctly, but we don't have an equivalent for Trivia or Flame Bait.

That said, this is kind of off-topic. To say something more on-topic, I'm aware that the use of "nut" as a noun to refer to a person doesn't mean calling the person crazy. However, a lot of existing wicks do refer to unhinged knife users, and we were already discussing using a new name for that trope.

Also, I do agree that knife wielders being sneaky and/or thieves is tropeworthy, but since that didn't get a dedicated category in the wick check, that might be something to send to the Salvage Yard.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 6th 2022 at 8:16:22 AM