TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

"Works About X" indexes

Go To

Thread current status:

Original post below.

This was prompted by the Trope Launch Pad discussion of Ursine Fiction.

Recently we've had a proliferation of indexes like Ghost Fiction and Demon Works, and folks are questioning whether they're actually needed. The draft at issue for whatever reason attracted a Troper Critical Mass saying it wasn't needed, and the discussion turned to "well, what about these other indexes"?

Personally, I recall a rule against Search Generated Indexes, and I don't think "work is about bears" or "work is about ghosts" properly counts as a genre.

Edited by StarSword on Jan 18th 2024 at 12:46:01 PM

NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#251: May 21st 2023 at 1:09:13 PM

The "representation in media" indexes feel kind of weird, since they're not genres either. From my understanding, LGBT Representation in Media was made so people could have a way to easily find queer characters on TV Tropes after a bunch of tropes were cut, and it was the first of its kind.

Edited by NitroIndigo on May 21st 2023 at 9:12:40 AM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#252: May 21st 2023 at 1:29:17 PM

[up]Essentially that was created because it was deemed necessary to draw a distinction between Queer Media as "media that prominently deals with queer-specific issues and storylines", and "media that prominently and intentionally involves queer characters but doesn't address anything unique to the queer experience". Also—and I wasn't involved so this is a secondhand impression—there was also some element of tropers feeling we needed to compromise over the fact the majority of tropes and indices about LGBT+ characters on the wiki involve bad things happening to or because of them, and several of the ones depicting them positively got cut by TRS as a consequence of the (I'm gonna go with) realization that just being queer wasn't a trope by itself. See here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15999363960A69014400

Even though it does kind of do the same thing as the indexes we're questioning the necessity of, I'm willing to let that one slide.

Edited by StarSword on May 21st 2023 at 5:23:31 AM

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#253: May 21st 2023 at 1:34:36 PM

[up][up][up] I'm just skipping some of the ones that might not need too much discussion.

School Stories is like the universal, non-culturally restricted Teen Drama. Fanservice, troubled teens, Most Writers Are Adults, bullying, Bittersweet 17, Senior Year Struggles, love triangles/Love Dodecahedron, Cock Fight, over-sexualized teenagers (read: esp female characters), Friendless Background, True Companions, Only Friend, First Friend, Girl Posse (Alpha Bitch and Beta Bitch, etc.), parental issues, Dysfunction Junction, School Festival, Class Trip, Japanese School Club, Absurdly Powerful Student Council, Class Representative, all teachers tropes, etc.

We can easily turn it into a genre-focused trope and add context to most of the works since many of them are well-known, so I'm not worried about it.

[up][up] That's fine; if the page has context and requires context as proof, then it isn't an index we should worry about.

Edited by selkies on May 21st 2023 at 10:35:16 AM

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#254: May 21st 2023 at 1:35:35 PM

Sports Stories on the other hand really would count as a legitimate genre with a little work: it's got a recognizable set of common tropes and plots—e.g. character development and self-discovery, personality clashes on The Team, needing to win the big game, etc.—and there are even legit Genre Deconstructions like Bull Durham.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#255: May 21st 2023 at 1:39:08 PM

I'm scrolling through now, and one issue I see with School Stories is that it lumps "any story set in or somehow involving a school" with the genre Selkies mentioned. For instance, Doki Doki Literature Club is indexed on there, even though the "school" aspect is just a backdrop for the club and never places a serious impact on the story. How I Met Your Mother is there because two of the characters become teachers, and New Girl because Jess is a teacher. Drake and Josh is there since the kids go to school, even though that's not the focus. Etc.

I agree that stories that primarily center around the kids and their lives at school, with the school being the main setting and the school drama and tropes having an impact, is a genre. But the index would need cleanup.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 21st 2023 at 4:40:28 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#256: May 21st 2023 at 2:44:22 PM

[up]This was the point I was making with why I disagreed with School Stories being "ok as a genre" and why I think it's better to go one by one. There might be a genre amongst the works, but currently the page isn't written as a genre page so there's no guidelines for what does and doesn't qualify leading to there being works that likely shouldn't be there.

And bringing up several at once leads to disjointed convos.

There's no need to rush through the process. Better to take our time and get it right the first time so we don't have to do this again once we finish.

On that note, we have someone bringing Samurai Stories to TRS. Before that discussion was Shark Stories and the idea of an Animal Horror genre. New genre pages would go through TLP, so if someone would like to pursue that route, go forth. Feel free to link the draft here for input if you'd like.

But for Shark Stories, I can draft something for TRS with a rec of cut or merge into These Tropes Are Fishy (in lieu of disambig-ing since all of the disambig targets are on this index). If people are good with that, then we can tackle School Stories, since there's been some convo about it.

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#257: May 21st 2023 at 3:01:42 PM

A School Story is "a story that focuses on young adults and adolescents' educational experiences and school life." Some definitions expand to teachers as well. That would make a good start for a trope with elements/characteristics than an example-less index for anything to do with a school.

But yeah, let's discuss things in the order they're brought up in.

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#258: May 21st 2023 at 3:28:51 PM

Wait was I supposed to do a different index first? Apologies, I saw Samurai Stories being discussed and figured I’d draft an OP.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#259: May 21st 2023 at 3:52:36 PM

No, it's fine Mayor ~ Any step is progress methinks. I wouldn't worry so much about a specific "order" as long as things are discussed first.

But yeah I'm not against keeping School Stories but we do need to better define what qualifies as such. I don't think that the protagonist merely being a teacher should qualify it, for example. Heck, the current description even specifically says it's for works set in schools or revolving around the lives of the students and faculty.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 21st 2023 at 6:54:35 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#260: May 21st 2023 at 4:29:50 PM

TRS thread that defined the current scope of Queer Media and led to the creation of LGBT Representation in Media.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#261: May 21st 2023 at 6:21:54 PM

[up][up] Thanks Jay.


I'd be in favor of a TRS for Shark Stories in the future, for the record, based on amathieu13's proposals.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#262: May 21st 2023 at 7:17:36 PM

Most of the "theme" section tropes since many of them are actual genres, except: Christian Fiction, Immortality Works, Video Game Stories (?), and Time Travel Tales.

Christian Fiction exists as a genre to at least the same extent that Young Adult Literature does (i.e. it's a marketing term with its own content standards, expected formulas, and internal trends), though the page image leads me to suspect misuse.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#263: May 21st 2023 at 8:59:23 PM

[up]Yeah, Christian Fiction should really be for stuff more along the lines of Left Behind and whatnot (please excuse the Small Reference Pools on my part). That's one that's probably fixable but needs a TRS run.

Edited by StarSword on May 21st 2023 at 11:59:55 AM

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#264: May 22nd 2023 at 1:58:16 AM

I added Shark Stories to the queue.

re: School Stories, we should note that there is a historical genre in the English language called "School Story" but it's much more specific than how we use the term [1]. I take it that we don't want our page to be quite as narrow.

BTW if people want to start collaborating on drafting any of the genre page ideas that we have discussed potentially spinning out, I added a page to the sandbox to do so: Analysis.Works About X Indexes

NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#265: May 22nd 2023 at 2:09:58 AM

I see that Mons Series is on the sandbox, and I've always thought it was redundant with Mons. Also, I've seen individual works with descriptions that start with "this is a Mons Series game", which doesn't make grammatical sense.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#266: May 22nd 2023 at 2:21:20 AM

[up]Nitro Indigo, please try to stick to one of the index pages already being discussed rather than jumping around. We're currently trying to figure out what to do with School Stories and Christian Fiction. Hold off on other topics until a set plan of action for those has been established.

Edited by amathieu13 on May 22nd 2023 at 5:21:56 AM

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#267: May 22nd 2023 at 5:55:35 AM

Yes, Christian Fiction is a genre but I mean, why especially Christianity? We can make Muslim Fiction, Jew Fiction, Buddhist Fiction, etc.

So why Christianity has its own separate index?

Edited by selkies on May 22nd 2023 at 2:56:23 PM

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#268: May 22nd 2023 at 9:23:05 AM

Double post, but I'm sponsoring the School Story genre draft and I'm posting it here first for feedback.

    School Story Draft 

A school story is a genre revolving around young adults and adolescents concerning their educational experience with school, college, or an academy as the main backdrop and setting. Their daily lives consist of at least 6 hours spent with fellow students, teachers, coaches, and instructors with extracurricular activities alongside the curriculum, usually after the tutoring classes. The shared space and experience allow the creators to have a central location in which all the events unfold. The school story is diverse in that it combines and blends other genres and sub-categories, such as Ecchi, Fantasy, Harem, Magical Girl, Mecha, Romantic Comedy, Science Fiction, Sports, Supernatural, YuriGenre, etc. and sometimes it's just associated with Slice of Life and Iyashikei. Schoolgirl Series is a subgenre of School Story.

School Stories differ from Teen Drama in that the School Story, emerging in the 19th century, predated Teen Dramas, which rose to fame in the early 1990s. And while both genres have educational institutions as the setting, Teen Dramas can occur in the character's house as Teen Dramas show the home situation of the teenage characters and include house party scenes, which means it's not restricted to school life and additional after-school activities.

Themes and tropes that are associated with the genre:


Examples:


Indexes: Fiction, Genres, High School Tropes, Japanese Media Tropes, School Tropes, Settings.

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#269: May 22nd 2023 at 10:35:36 AM

[up][up] Cultural hegemony. :P At least to my knowledge, none of those have an entire industry of publishers dedicated to marketing stories as spiritually inspiring, The Moral Substitute, etc, and (just as importantly) defining what that means.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on May 22nd 2023 at 6:36:42 PM

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#270: May 22nd 2023 at 10:56:42 AM

Yeah, it's more an American evangelical Christian phenomenon, the same way we have Christian Rock as a genre.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
RockRaider Since: Aug, 2014
#271: May 23rd 2023 at 3:25:32 PM

I know this thing is ongoing, but I would like to keep adding to Hillbilly Media.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#272: May 23rd 2023 at 11:31:19 PM

[up]You're free to keep working on it, you just can't launch it.

That said, I still stand by my earlier comment that it's the kind of index we'd be looking to cut or merge if it were live since it amounts to "works in which a version of the Half-Witted Hillbilly appears", which is just redundant with Half-Witted Hillbilly. And we already have Hillbilly Horrors as a genre page.

Edited by amathieu13 on May 23rd 2023 at 2:31:29 PM

GrafVonTirol Same as it ever was from a state of boredom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Standing outside, playing "In Your Eyes" on the boombox
Same as it ever was
#273: May 28th 2023 at 12:44:17 PM

I don't think these are within the purview of the thread, since they're under Media and not Works by Subject, but I wonder about the status of "(Nationality) Media" pages. TLP Drafts that I have seen under this category:

  • Comorian Media (problem is there isn't an entry on that index that has a page, so do we really need that for the time being?)
  • Moroccan Media (I've seen it's been mentioned on this thread before, and the original sponsor had been bounced. I've made a few tweaks to it but not launching just yet.)
  • Pakistani Media (not as many examples as the other drafts sure, but at least there are works indexed there; not sure if it's ready or not)
  • Senegalese Media (I started this page yesterday after feeling that there's enough material on the country's UN page to warrant one. And it's from this draft that one poster referred to here. Seeing as three days haven't passed yet, I'm not hasty about launching it even when it got the hats)

Edited by GrafVonTirol on May 28th 2023 at 8:25:31 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#274: May 28th 2023 at 12:58:34 PM

I'm not as concerned about those since those seem much more helpful in helping people find specific works.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#275: May 28th 2023 at 2:25:52 PM

[up] Wouldn't that make them Search-Generated Index? We're literally de-troping every index page that has "X in the title", so how is these nationality media any different in being SGIs?

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.

Crown Description:

There have been concerns that certain Works By Subject indexes like Dinosaur Media and Bovine Fiction are suffering from loose criteria, redundancy issues with related tropes, contribute to index bloat, and may not be needed in the first place.

Total posts: 335
Top