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Obviously, each person may have a different experience, but this complaint feels like cherry-picking to me. The Jewish imagery in the scene is incidental to its meaning, which is to convey how much self-loathing and shame Marc feels over his mother. Some of that could well be directed toward his religion, but only in a very incidental way.
Also, I thought that was a yarmulke, but the distinction is lost on me.
The MCU has, perhaps wisely, shied away from a discussion of how the presence of literal gods and superbeings has affected religious faith, and Moon Knight itself makes barely any references to other MCU events — the only overt one is when Taweret gives an offhand mention to the Ancestral Plane, which features in Black Panther.
It would make logical sense for Marc to question his faith when he knows for an absolute fact that the Egyptian gods are real, but the show doesn't dwell on this.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 9th 2022 at 11:56:17 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!""Kippah" and "yarmulke" are respectively the Hebrew (Afroasiatic) and Yiddish (Germanic) words for the same thing, that's all.
As folks have mentioned earlier in the thread the subject of Marc's Jewishness is very Depending on the Writer. The runs that do focus on it tend to make it clear he's raised Culturally Religious but has since lapsed into atheism and that he sees his father's religiosity as a weakness. The show's version of his father retains the Good Is Impotent aspects of the comics version, but does not explicitly blame his religiosity for it. Again, given my personal speculation that Jake's neuroses are the result of paternal inaction, I do think that's a thing they might be saving for a second season, even if his father might no longer be a rabbi in this continuity.
For what it's worth, Steven has keeps a book of Jewish history on his shelf and a mezuzah on his door, similar to Kate's aunt, and is implied to be still practicing compared to Marc. Which makes sense as he does not have the same memories of a traumatic upbringing to make him question his faith. As ![]()
points out, Marc also clearly regrets touching his kippah to the ground, and I've seen some Jewish folk describe his reaction of bringing it to his chest as Shown Their Work and the specific kind of reaction that tends to come from someone who still actively follows the beliefs of Judaism (the idea being that the kippah must not touch the ground and that you undo the sacrilege by raising it and sometimes kissing it). Marc is seen wearing a Magen David necklace in the show's present, so they clearly continue to identify as culturally/ethnically Jewish even if one of them might not believe in Adonai. And even if Marc only wears the necklace because it's from Steven, he cared enough to not take it off.
It also should be noted in a general sense that it's fairly common for non-Orthodox Jews to practice their religious beliefs while not actually believing in the existence of God, and indeed Judaism has a long tradition of and acceptance of rigorous skepticism towards theology compared to Islam and Christianity, as can be seen in Talmudic and related Jewish Bible commentaries across the centuries. Jewishness need not be measured by religiosity the way people raised in Christonormative societies frequently assume it to be (indeed, even as an atheist with Buddhist relatives it's a thing that took me time to wrap my head around). So the existence of other gods would probably create a theological conundrum for Jews, but not necessarily an insurmountable one (and indeed some more Gnostic or esoteric interpretations of Judaism do allow for lesser forms of divinity).
Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 10th 2022 at 3:44:39 PM
Moon Knight is a guy who really could very easily have an expansive rogues gallery but the comic books never went there for some reason. Specifically, he could have all sorts of Egyptian god themed baddies that plenty of other media franchises could have used.
Set, Sobek, Romans, evil mummies and so on.
Instead, they went original and perhaps not for the best.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
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If anything, I would think the demonstrable physical existence of some pantheons would bolster many peoples' religious beliefs—"if [x] is real, then [y] surely must also be too". It's easy to forget that even Christianity vis-à-vis the old testament wasn't strictly monotheistic and explicitly mentions other gods a few times, more positing Yahweh as the 'right' choice.
Edited by Chortleous on Jun 9th 2022 at 7:55:48 AM
Presumably because the character is more driven by Man vs. Self-type conflicts than a traditional rogue's gallery so it matters less.
Eh, not Christianity. You're mostly correct, as the ancient Canaanite religion originated as polytheistic and monolatrous worship of the tutelary storm deity Yahweh coexisted with the acknowledgement of other gods such as El who were sometimes syncretized into Yahweh. But the religion we understand to be Judaism had crystallized into becoming strictly monotheistic in response to the Babylonian Exile, and never looking back.
Meanwhile, Christianity emerged as a kind of Hellenistic syncretism where contemporary Jewish beliefs were passed through a heavy Greco-Roman filter co-current with Zoroastrianism before crystalizing into their own separate religion.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 9th 2022 at 9:10:44 AM
His most emblematic run has the character largely involved in down-to-earth criminal shenanigans so the idea of a rogues gallery composed entirely of egyptian mythology foes doesn't quite click with that. The Zelenetz, Lemire and Bemis runs were the ones that had more supernatural-themed foes, and from those only Lemire is highly regarded (and also it plays the supernatural circumstances and antagonists as a prolonged Through the Eyes of Madness situation).
Honestly it's cool that we don't get too bogged down on every villain being an avatar of someone. The character being a egyptian-deity-themed urban vigilante who deals with everything but egyptian deities most of the time enriches him a lot.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."It's fine, I think, that his debut has him going up against Egyptian deities. I know some people don't like the idea that every MCU show must confront the hero(es) with some world-shattering evil plot, but since they do, it would be weird to have a character like this not face a serious threat. And heck, now Egyptian gods are in the MCU... just in time for Gorr to get to some butcherin'?
Aside from its handful of references, Moon Knight is an odd duck because it is written as a completely standalone work, able to be set at almost any time in the MCU. It's stronger for that, in my opinion. There are certainly ways for it to join the wider cast, but Marvel seems to have been hedging its bets. Now that there is a second season happening, or so it seems, we might get an expansion of its scope.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Tellingly the run that brought Moon Knight back to the mainstream was the Ellies run which featured him facing entirely low-key baddies. He fights a serial killer hiding under the sewers, punches some ghost just harassing people, stops a sniper from assassinating a bunch of executives due to a revenge quest, and pulled a Raid storming an abandoned building up some gangsters all just to rescue a little girl they kidnapped.
And the finale issue of said run was against Black Specter II, a complete nobody. He's just some low-rent cop who wants to be someone and attacked Moon Knight to take his place. A completely personal threat, all that happens is some cars get blown up.
No Gods barring Khonshu, no world or city under threat, a bunch of people aren't in danger, just a guy with a bone to pick with Moon Knight finishing in a succinct brawl between the 2.
Edited by slimcoder on Jun 9th 2022 at 6:28:33 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."![]()
Heck, they teased the absolute bollocks out of Jake Lockley, so they've got that on tap for whatever comes next.
It's easier to do that in the comics, though. A film or a TV miniseries needs higher stakes because it's not something that is going to go on for months or years; you don't have to stretch out the big, punchy plots to avoid running dry.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 9th 2022 at 9:30:11 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I do know that the decision to focus so heavily on the Egyptian aspects of the mythos and to suggest that the gods are indeed real and not just in Marc's head, and for Moon Knight to be overtly supernatural as opposed to a Crazy Is Cool Badass Normal fighting against other street-level nonpowered foes, has seriously pissed off a lot of old-school comics fans who accuse the show of being very In Name Only since the ambiguity of it all was a major element of the comics.
I tend to find urban fantasy to be very appealing to my personal tastes so it's one of those breaks from the source material I am all too happy to see, although I do understand their grievances. And now that those elements have been established as part of the lore I'd be happy with them dialing it back for continuations, especially if it leans in the direction of things like Post Modern Magick which I especially am fond of.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 9th 2022 at 9:42:58 AM
Well, no offense, but the "old-school comic fans" are not the target audience of the MCU. They have their stories already; let us have new ones. If I want the "authentic Moon Knight experience", I can read some of those comics, and I'm sure the "old-school fans" will be happy to deluge me with their recommendations.
People need to stop pissing in other people's cornflakes.
I do kind of like how the ending of this season kept teasing the idea that everything that happened was all in Marc and Steven's heads, but eventually brought us back to something like reality. I hope they keep up those mind games.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 9th 2022 at 9:37:16 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"![]()
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I don't really believe that.
Tellingly in regards to Daredevil the best part of season 2 was the battle against Punisher and the personal grounded stakes between him and Matt.
But when it shifted to the more overtly supernatural Hand stuff thats when it became shit.
Which is indicative of the Hand plot overall which lead to Defenders being not very good because of the upper stakes.
Edited by slimcoder on Jun 9th 2022 at 6:35:46 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I don't mean to imply that a mundane story can't be good. All I'm saying is that I really enjoyed this take on Moon Knight. That's it. I came to it without preconceptions and because of that I wasn't busy in my head comparing it to some other version of it that I already liked.
It's a risk you take, I guess.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 9th 2022 at 9:46:32 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!""He didn't even kill someone by cutting off their face and then later try to wear said removed face as a mask! In Name Only!"
-Comic book fans, probably.
Comic book fans can be an annoying bunch, although I think the attitude of "comic books are utterly and completely worthless to its adaptations and raising any kind of comparison is insulting people who liked the show on its own" isn't particularly helpful to the discourse either.
I overall liked the show (in fact I'd say it's on the upper-tier of things the MCU produced), but I think many things from the source material worked better. Some things were improved for the show, some things weren't. That's how adaptations usually go.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Again, this is why I think being overly familiar with the source material can be a disadvantage. When I watched the new Dune film, I was comparing it both to the old David Lynch film and to the books that I've read probably as often as I've read Lord of the Rings. I had a very difficult time telling myself to stop, but when I did, I enjoyed it more.
We get way too in our heads about this sort of thing.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 9th 2022 at 10:13:06 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"As I said, toxic fanbases being stuck in a mire of "total faithulness" is a phenomena as old as time. I just think it's always important to not keep the discourse stuck between "comic books are the sacred gospel and deviations are blapshemy" and "comic books are toilet paper and its adaptations are all that matters".
It's a very easy quagmire to fall into, and for some reason it seems to chiefly happen when it comes to comics. In prose literature-to-film adaptations, even when there's the toxic fandoms raging about changes, a much more honest and simple discussion about what changes worked and what didn't is allowed. Comic book adaptations always get stuck in that binary.
Edited by Gaon on Jun 9th 2022 at 7:22:02 AM
"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Edited by good-morning on Jun 9th 2022 at 9:25:25 AM
oh hey how are you doing?