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Tropes Needing TRS cleanup and discussion thread

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There's been a lot of talk lately about how Tropes Needing TRS is getting too long and backed-up, as well as about how many of the tropes added might not even need TRS action at all. It was decided we should make a short-term project thread to clean out the page before we take any more drastic actions.

Some potential guidelines for what might need to be removed:

  • Tropes added without enough discussion or a prior wick check (does not apply to issues such as Not Thriving)
  • Entries that either misunderstand the trope or require more consensus about the trope's usage first
  • Things that already have open or finished TRS threads

Note: This thread is specifically about maintaining the TNTRS page itself and the entries on it, not for discussing potential TRS threads. Please use Trope Talk or the TRS Meta Thread for that.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 7th 2024 at 1:47:52 PM

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#526: Jan 9th 2023 at 5:02:20 PM

So, per a recent PM conversation with another troper, It Makes Sense in Context and Makes Just as Much Sense in Context don't have an asterisk despite being tropes that, if they are indeed pothole magnets, would likely need a wick check. Is this intentional, or an oversight?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#527: Jan 9th 2023 at 5:06:02 PM

I probably just overlooked that entry while doing the cleanup.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#529: Jan 9th 2023 at 6:47:53 PM

Just found out the trope I put on Tropes Needing TRS has an asterisk next to it, so I wanna discuss it.

Dismissed Gender is basically a fucking mess. It was created in 2007 so that's probably why. It's a trope about "Concepts and situations in a work that would be problematic or more acceptable if the genders involved were switched around." So, let's see how many issues it has:

  • It has non-standard formatting. The fictional examples aren't sorted by medium but are lumped all together.
  • It has a "general" examples section which not only violates the Examples Are Not General rule but also lists situations that can go in the description itself.
  • It only has 19 wicks for a trope that existed for 10+ years and...
  • ...Cross-wicking examples is a problem since the on-page examples are all over the place. Some are about the audience's reaction, some are about a fictional work's pre-release decisions (trivia), and some are just ZCE.
  • This trope speculates and is about audience reactions to certain elements, so it should probably be YMMV.


Should it have a separate discussion thread, or discussed here, or be put on the TRS Queue (which I know is getting longer now)?

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badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#530: Jan 9th 2023 at 6:49:29 PM

Make a discussion thread for it first.

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#531: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:18:24 PM

Per this discussion on Dismissed Gender, I'll remove it from Tropes Needing TRS to the TRS queue. Just letting y'all know.

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
Vandagyre I think I just got AC team loyalty from Dacardia (Fifth Year at Tropey's) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
I think I just got AC team loyalty
#532: Jan 13th 2023 at 1:29:21 PM

I've been helping to dewick The Chick and noticed that a fair number of wicks are incorporated into examples of The Team. To be more precise, several off-page examples of The Team are formatted in supertrope-subtrope format and are low on context, similar to how Five-Man Band was before it went through TRS. The on-page examples are better in the context department, but the majority are still formatted improperly.

Does anyone else have opinions on the matter?

Cave Johnson, we're done here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#533: Jan 13th 2023 at 2:02:33 PM

I feel like most of those are sorta... FMB holdovers that got moved, rather than legit examples of The Team, just as Five Bad Band saw a lot of examples moved wholesale to Five-Man Band. IDRK what to do about them though since deleting them feels a bit excessive (since they're not technically misuse)?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#534: Jan 13th 2023 at 2:22:48 PM

Maybe a wick check could be in order. Might be worth discussing in its own thread.

SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
#535: Jan 17th 2023 at 6:01:12 PM

Can a trope be sent to TRS merely due to having a Non-Indicative Name?

The trope in question is "Reborn as Villainess" Story. It was launched in December 2021 and described a sub-genre of (mostly) East Asian fiction (originated in Japan, but the page also includes examples from China and South Korea, as well as a few from other countries). The tropability of the concept is not in question and judging the 75 wicks as of the time of writing, there is little to no misuse.

As I noted on its discussion page, however, there's a problem with the word "reborn" in the title, because while the Trope Codifier involves Media Transmigration of the Next Life as a Fictional Character variety, a significant portion of the more famous works of the genre does not involve any kind of reincarnation or transmigration. I suspect the word "Reborn" might mislead editors about the diameters of the trope, but is it a reason to request TRS? In that case, do I still need a wick check?

Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#536: Jan 17th 2023 at 6:10:43 PM

[up] If the name is misleading, a check is still required to prove that it is causing misuse.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#537: Jan 17th 2023 at 6:15:55 PM

Would need statistics how many of "Villainess Isekai" are reincarnations and how many aren't.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#538: Jan 17th 2023 at 8:36:34 PM

[up](x3) From what I know, that can happen if the name causes misuse.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jan 17th 2023 at 10:23:37 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#539: Jan 18th 2023 at 1:08:48 PM

Okay, I've been on the Is This An Example thread trying to figure out what to do with an example of Four-Man Band that seems shoehorned, but which has the added complication of being the trope image (The Real Ghostbusters).

Every example on the trope page is laid out like this:

The Real Ghostbusters

Only Sane ManWinston Zeddmore
The Smart GuyDr. Egon Spengler
The Casanova WannabeDr. Peter Venkman
The Butt-MonkeyDr. Raymond Stantz

It was pointed out by ~Amonimus that this renders every entry on the page useless. No-one can tell if any entry is an example, shoehorn or misuse. They suggested it needs a TRS action.

So, what's the best way to proceed here? I haven't added it to the Tropes Needing TRS page because I don't know if a wick check is needed, and what to check for if one is done. So, any advice how to proceed with this one would be gratefully appreciated.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#540: Jan 18th 2023 at 1:14:10 PM

[up]I might be wrong though I think those context-lacking Five-Man Band examples are supposed to be cut.

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#541: Jan 18th 2023 at 1:32:34 PM

[up][up] My advice is to leave it alone until TRS gets it, 'cause Amominus is correct— the ZCE table format is not helpful. If it turns out the only action the discussion decides on is to eliminate the tables and crosswick, then it's fine to proceed with cleaning up.

Or

For this individual example, it appears each member has one of the tropes listed in his section of the character sheet, so if you want to, you can assemble a Four-Man Band entry for the work page. If TRS redefines or rids Four-Man Band, the effort would be for nothing.

Edited by Tabs on Jan 18th 2023 at 1:34:37 AM

SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
#542: Jan 18th 2023 at 5:28:24 PM

[up][up][up] Have you considered a minimal solution of asking Image Picking to pick a new page image?

Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#543: Jan 18th 2023 at 5:30:01 PM

I mean, it needs TRS regardless, the image is just an extra thing.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#544: Jan 18th 2023 at 6:29:06 PM

So, there was a brief discussion on Significant Sketchbook's definition + scope, but it stalled. I've found some problems with this trope.

  1. The description is somewhat unclear. To reiterate, it has two completely different concepts merged into one trope: "a character's sketchbook adds a hidden dimension to them and makes them bond w/ another character" + "a sketchbook, in general, has significance in various ways; it's a MacGuffin, includes a hidden detail, etc."
  2. The trope isn't listed on the Plot Device index, and Bookish Tropes describes only the 1st concept. note  Meaning, the trope leans more toward the 1st concept and the 2nd concept is not relevant/outside the trope's scope. Also, there's no other brief description of the trope to go by other than the one on Bookish Tropes.
  3. I quickly examined the wicks, and most examples are either ZCEs or more about the 2nd concept with only 4 examples or so about the 1st concept. So the trope might need a rewrite as the 1st concept is too narrow.

Should I take it to TRS for being unclear/all over the place, and does it need a wick check?

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#546: Jan 19th 2023 at 10:38:47 AM

[up][up]Yes, it needs a wick check and, after you have that, it seems appropriate to bring it to the TRS.

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#547: Jan 19th 2023 at 10:45:55 AM

What should be the thread reason, an unclear description, or just needs help?

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
Yindee Just stoic wisdom. from New England Since: Jul, 2016
Just stoic wisdom.
#548: Jan 19th 2023 at 11:05:19 AM

[up] Needs Help works as a catchall if you aren't sure about its category.

Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#549: Jan 19th 2023 at 12:30:42 PM

I'd go with unclear description as that seems to be the root of the problems, but it's up to you.

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
AmourMitts Since: Jan, 2016
#550: Jan 21st 2023 at 11:50:38 PM

I think Most Common Super Power might need a rename, as anyone not familiar with female superheroes could very well mistake it for practically any comic book superhero's signature power.


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