There's been a lot of talk lately about how Tropes Needing TRS is getting too long and backed-up, as well as about how many of the tropes added might not even need TRS action at all. It was decided we should make a short-term project thread to clean out the page before we take any more drastic actions.
Some potential guidelines for what might need to be removed:
- Tropes added without enough discussion or a prior wick check (does not apply to issues such as Not Thriving)
- Entries that either misunderstand the trope or require more consensus about the trope's usage first
- Things that already have open or finished TRS threads
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 23rd 2022 at 1:49:23 PM
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#352: May 20th 2022 at 10:10:22 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, I think it's the writeup. I'm not opposed to it being there, but the only evidence presented in the writeup itself is "bad laconic", which rarely means anything of note.
Possibly. It feels like some of the stuff is definitely in there for lack of a better place to put them, but it does bother me that so many of these entries never even once mention the actual trope description and how well or poorly its written. Scope and the like all pertains to the actual definition, which is a bit different than a trope's description, so it feels weird to lump them together.
mightymewtron
Angry babby
from New New York
Since: Oct, 2012
Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#353: May 20th 2022 at 2:11:23 PM
I think maybe it's cuz people use "unclear description" on TRS to sometimes refer to unclear definitions? I know I did, though in at least one case, Next Gen Fic, it also had a terrible short description.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
wingedcatgirl
I'm helping!
from lurking
(Holding A Herring)
Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
I'm helping!
#355: May 20th 2022 at 5:48:12 PM
Yeah, at least one of those was our doing, and we put it in "unclear description" because the definition wasn't clear to us.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#356: May 21st 2022 at 11:23:49 AM
I'll write up a new entry for Drop the Cow when I have some more time. I've been a bit busy this weekend visiting people, so when I get a chance I'll see what I can do.
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WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#357: May 21st 2022 at 11:31:42 AM
No worries.
I might try the folder-split idea. We could have one for soft-splits and another for unclear definition issues if everyone's cool with that.
Edited by WarJay77 on May 21st 2022 at 2:32:07 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Albert3105
Since: Jun, 2013
#358: May 27th 2022 at 1:59:19 PM
Shoot the Shaggy Dog has been under dispute on whether it means that "protagonist died All for Nothing" or "All for Nothing ending" for over 10 years, with the Laconic getting warred over accordingly. Is TRS necessary to resolve this conflict?
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#359: May 27th 2022 at 2:01:44 PM
I still maintain what I said at ATT that, yeah, TRS is probably needed. I'm not opposed to adding it to TNTRS, I just wanted to invite you here to elaborate on the fact that because the page is undergoing a (slow) cleanup effort, we have a sandbox that'll be swapped in, so if you add it to TNTRS add it to the sandbox as well to ensure it doesn't disappear when swapped.
Of course, if you're planning to take it to TRS yourself it doesn't need to be on this page at all.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Albert3105
Since: Jun, 2013
#360: May 27th 2022 at 3:37:16 PM
Is a wick check needed for it to send to TRS? I know most subjects do, but some don't.
Thanks for warning me of the swap.
Edited by Albert3105 on May 27th 2022 at 6:38:35 AM
#361: May 27th 2022 at 4:12:24 PM
In most cases, yes.
Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
TheLivingDrawing
Lucas the Dreamer
from The Town of Clayton
Since: Apr, 2019
Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#362: May 29th 2022 at 4:40:08 PM
Animation Lead Time strikes me as a Trivia or even a YMMV trope yet it’s neither.
Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#363: May 29th 2022 at 5:02:11 PM
Every time this is bumped I get reminded that there's still cleanup left to do.
Any opinions on my "Soft-Split" folder idea? What about one for vague definitions?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
(she/her)
#364: May 29th 2022 at 5:14:43 PM
You are trying to consolidate the folders? The soft split idea seems fine to me.
Macron's notes
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#365: May 29th 2022 at 5:18:32 PM
I'm actually trying to split the folders. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
The "unclear description" one I checked most recently is chock full of things that either have to do with soft-splits (not necessarily a TRS issue anyway, but eh) or definition issues that aren't related to the actual description. Or, well, things that just objectively belong in other folders.
Here's that analysis.
Edited by WarJay77 on May 29th 2022 at 8:18:58 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#366: Jun 7th 2022 at 7:23:53 AM
I made a bunch of additions to TNTRS recently. Are they valid? Are the write-ups good? I'll remove anything that isn't valid/rewrite any bad write-ups for valid additions.
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WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#367: Jun 7th 2022 at 10:14:13 AM
Maybe list 'em all out here?
And add them to the sandbox if you haven't. I think I'll finally try my new folder idea later today.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#368: Jun 8th 2022 at 6:48:23 AM
I did add them to the sandbox.
I'll list a bunch of them here (excluding ones that have opened threads or completed wick checks:):
open/close all folders
Misuse or ZCE issues:
- Cry Cute: This trope is supposed to be about when a harsh character breaks down and cries, making it more meaningful, unique, or attractive. However, it is often misused for any character crying and being deemed cute. A wick check of 50 wicks is ongoing.
- Everythings Better With Dinosaurs: While this trope is supposed to be about dinosaurs being added for the Rule of Cool, due likely to its name (which is part of the infamous Everything's Better With X family) it is possibly attracting "dinosaurs exist" entries, of which the on-page examples already contain some. 50 wicks need checking.
- Royal Bastard: This trope is supposed to be about someone being the illegitimate child of a royal, with both "royal + commoner" and "royal + noble offspring" being allowed. However, as was discovered, it gets misused for "noble + commoner" pairings, which aren't allowed. The existence of a Noble Bastard redirect was identified as a possible source of some of the misuse. 50 wicks need checking.
- Villain Killer: This Trope Talk thread indicated that this trope may be suffering from misuse in the form of any character who kills a lot of enemies, even if that isn't necessarily a trait associated with the characters. 50 wicks need checking.
Not thriving:
- If You Call Before Midnight Tonight: Only 20 wicks since 2007, as discovered by this TLP Crash Rescue comment.
- They Wasted A Perfectly Good Line Art: 20 total wicks since 2008, plus the definition is just complaining about bad coloring (with good linework) in animation.
Poor title:
- Look on My Works, Ye Mighty, and Despair: Identified by the TRS thread for And Man Grew Proud as having an unclear title, poor image, and possible resultant misuse issues. The description has also been noted as being unclear. Might need an expansion and possibly a rename. 50 wicks need checking.
Actually subjective/should be In-Universe Examples Only:
- Badass Adorable: What constitutes "adorable" has been brought up in at least one ATT as possibly being too subjective. Per the linked ATT: "it's practically become a vague catch-all term for literally anything and everything that a troper finds admirable/likable about a character." Despite this, the trope is not listed as YMMV, and due to the somewhat vague definition (which essentially amounts to "Badass + adorable") and resulting unclear usage may need more serious action as well. 85 wicks need checking.
Redundant / overlaps with another trope:
- Spectacular Spinning: This comment indicated that most valid examples of this trope are redundant with Spin Attack. A conversion from a trope + index to just an index may be needed. 50 wicks need checking.
People Sit on Chairs / Really a Useful Note:
- 12-Episode Anime: This Trope Talk thread (and an ATT it continued from) discovered that the page is written more like a Useful Notes page than a trope, and is possibly chairs as well due to the concept being far more common now than in the past. Several tropers in the thread have already expressed a desire to move it to Useful Notes or make it an index or Definition-Only. Attraction of ZCEs was also noted. If wick checked, 50 wicks need checking.
Murky description/unclear definition/other description issues:
- Bilingual Animal: The scope of this trope has been noted as being unclear. As Amonimus noted in the linked thread, there are two different interpretations of the trope—"animals can have a conversation with both humans and animals," and "animals can both talk human language and make animal sounds." There are only 45 wicks, so all can probably be checked.
Miscellaneous or multiple issues:
- Crapsack World: This ATT discovered that the description has been watered down over the years in a way that has led to the trope becoming overly vague and inviting complaining about works that don't actually have a setting in a horrible world, making this both a description and complaining issue. 108 wicks need checking.
- Jerks Are Worse Than Villains: The trope is supposed to be, as Square Peg, Round Trope puts it, "an Audience Reaction phenomenon where audiences tend to react more negatively to general Jerkass characters doing minor stuff to annoy the hero than to actual villains who commit heinous crimes." However, despite the exclusion of Hate Sink or In-Universe examples, it is misused for both. Notably, the misuse already started appearing on the very first day of the trope's existence. It is also often used for complaining, making this both a misuse and complaining issue. The description has also been noted as being excessively long. 50 wicks need checking.
- Worldbuilding: This Trope Talk thread discovered that this trope may be an Omnipresent Trope that doesn't need examples, as it is far too common in works. 50 wicks need checking.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jun 8th 2022 at 9:49:30 AM
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WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#369: Jun 8th 2022 at 11:51:37 AM
Those all look fine to me.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#370: Jun 8th 2022 at 11:52:54 AM
Ah thanks. Was nervous after the Drop the Cow entry but I'm glad my writeups are all good.
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#371: Jun 8th 2022 at 11:59:34 AM
With that one specifically I think the issue was just that instead of describing people's actual confusion with it you just ended up saying "laconic wrong", which doesn't inherently mean there's a problem with the trope, ya know? But all those ones were fine, I understand their problems.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
themayorofsimpleton
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
from Elsewhere
(Experienced, Not Yet Jaded)
Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#372: Jun 8th 2022 at 4:37:21 PM
The problem with the Drop the Cow entry was that TRS was brought up as a possible solution but I don't think I ever really got a clear idea of what the problem was specifically, and looking at the trope page didn't help.
I honestly think we should just remove the Drop the Cow entry for now until someone (possibly me) writes a better writeup for the trope.
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WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#373: Jun 8th 2022 at 4:39:56 PM
That's fair.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
WarJay77
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#374: Jun 12th 2022 at 11:52:51 AM
Alright, here's my crack at splitting "Description Issues" up with three other folders, "Unclear Definition", "Unnecessary Soft-Split", and "Combines Too Many Concepts" (might be renamed). I took this from the actual page and not the sandbox, but will swap it into the sandbox when it's done. For tropes that disappeared completely I moved them into other folders on the sandbox.
Thoughts?
Murky/Unclear Description
- Anime Theme Song: Discussed in Is This An Example? thread because the trope description doesn't explain how to apply the trope properly. There is no clear definition of what Anime Theme Song is. It is also an example-less page and advises that examples should not even appear on work pages unless they're "noteworthy" or "career-launching"; however, there's no explanation of what counts as "noteworthy". So, the observations about the current content are: it needs to properly explain what "noteworthy" examples are (the original post); it needs a trope definition; it should be made a Useful Notes page; it appears to have no distinction from Theme Tune. Everyone agrees it needs trope repair. *
- Dark Messiah: The article uses words like "usually," "may (or may not)," and other similar words/phrases in the description, making exactly what one is ambiguous—or at the very least make this a flexible trope. The diversity in the listed examples adds further confusion on what a dark messiah actually is. Trope Talk thread here. Description cleanup Sandbox here. *
- Flagship Franchise: The description is pretty short and doesn't explain very well what this concept is, and the trope attracts entries that don't describe a franchise, per se. A Trope Talk discussion found some of these issues with the trope. There are 148 wicks, so a wick check ideally should tackle either 50 or all of them.
- Glamour: Description should be something that discusses how this is about any spell called a "glamour" because they share similarities, but they're not all the same. Or get a rename and a changed description to fit an idea of Our Glamours Are Different. *
- Happy Birthday to You!: It's unclear if it's supposed to be about birthday songs in general, or if it's specifically Writing Around Trademarks for the specific song "Happy Birthday to You" (prior to a lawsuit invalidating its copyright claim in 2015). *
- Hope Springs Eternal: Unclear if it's about a stock message that things will eventually become better, or just about any reference to hope. *
- I Am the Band: The description is trying to give multiple different definitions for what it means for a musician to "be" their band, ranging from "band member who is very controlling of the others" to "solo artist who can be mistaken for a band". Because of this, most of the on-page examples say nothing more than "Band is Artist". *
- Mean Brit: Does this refer to any British character with a bad attitude, or specifically expies of mean British reality show judges like Simon Cowell and Piers Morgan? If it's the former, then it might be redundant with Evil Brit. Discussion here. *
- Metro-Specific Underworld: Just a list of stereotypes of gangs for specific areas, no explanation of the significance of the trope, and it has a non-standard page format. All of this makes it hard to figure out what the trope is even for. *
- Most Fanfic Writers Are Fans: The description is trying to say why people write fanfiction, but doesn't describe a trope. It's been suggested that it could be moved to the Analysis subpage of Fanfic instead. *
- Neutron Bomb: Cannot decide whether it is a Useful Notes page or a trope, and whether that trope is "Neutron bombs being portrayed inaccurately", "Neutron bombs appear in this work", or "WMDs that kill people but leave structures intact". A TRS thread was started, but clocked out due to inactivity and a lack of a wick check. *
- Power Creep, Power Seep: As currently written, this is specific to crossovers. However, the concept it describes (preexisting character's power level is adjusted to match the new work) is more about adaptations in general and has little to do with crossovers specifically. This restriction can probably be removed. *
- Pyramid Power is a mixture of "pyramids have a mystical power", "pyramids were built by aliens", "pyramids were built by slaves", and "this work contains a pyramid." The last of these is obviously PSOC, but the trope description is such a mess that it's not clear which of the first three is meant. *
- Revealing Cover-Up: The lengthy Example as a Thesis describes a scenario of "hiding X by taking flashy action Y, which leads directly to the discovery of X", making it unclear whether the trope is "hiding X by taking flashy action Y" or "attempting to hide X leads directly to the discovery of X" — or if it was legitimately intended to cover the whole scenario, in which case it should probably be split because that is definitely two tropes, not one. *
- Skepticism Failure: The description is very murky. It's confusingly worded, goes off on a tangent in the first couple paragraphs, and seems to be trying to express multiple distinct tropes: "the skeptic in a paranormal series will always be proven wrong" (per the laconic and title), "the skeptic remains skeptical despite massive evidence to the contrary" (per the page image), "skeptics are naive", and "true believers are more common than skeptics in fiction".
- Text Parser: The description is borderline incomprehensible due to its self demonstrating nature, has no examples, and You Can't Get Ye Flask could probably be merged into this trope so that it's less about complaining and more about the (relatively) advanced ability of the computer to understand colloquial English.
- Youth Is Wasted on the Dumb: Description is unclear, seems to be "teens pressuring each other into dangerous pranks and other acts", but the examples don't bear this out and the title is way too broad for that. Trope talk thread *
Unclear Definition
- Acceptable Targets: The trope is supposed to be about the issue of which groups are okay to mock and which ones aren't. The trope is listed on YMMV pages, but most examples describe objective statements about the group being mocked in a work, not how the audience thinks the group is an acceptable target. If the creator thought the group is an acceptable target (which may not have been the specific intention) then that may be redundant with Take That! and Author Tract. It also seems like a Trope in Aggregate, but this is not very-well defined, since it relies on comparison with targets that are not acceptable, which are usually not specified by the examples either. A previous TRS thread resulted in no consensus. *
- Can Only Move the Eyes: The title sounds like it's about characters literally only being able to move their eyes, but the laconic says it's about characters being conscious while immobilised. The latter is also how And I Must Scream is commonly misused, so there's a lot of overlap. *
- Care-Bear Stare: An attack powered by positivity, or anti-Mind Rape? While there's heavy overlap because an infusion of positivity is usually treated as mentally positive, the two are functionally different. *
- Cut And Paste Translation: The title and laconic states the trope's meaning is supposed to be "slapping different parts of a work together in translation", while the description and examples make the trope look like example-allowed Macekre. Wick check here.
- Development Hell: When this applies is clear for most types of works, but the same is not true for video game examples. It's been claimed that Vaporware is its counterpart for video games (and software in general), but it's also been argued that video games can go through Development Hell without being Vaporware.
- Editing Works: Nonstandard design. The concept (applying edits to raw footage) is very broad, like "hand-eye coordination." *
- Fatal Method Acting: The given definition is, "A performer dies suddenly while on the job." There's some ambiguity as to whether the performer has to die as a result of their job, as the title implies, or if this extends to health mishaps not proven to be caused by their work, which includes many medical examples on the page. There's also some confusion as to whether the "creator" vs "performer" distinction is clear enough to separate it from Died During Production. Discussion. *
- Popularity Polynomial: This comment identified the trope as having an unclear definition (and it is worth noting that the trope doesn't really have any criteria for what counts as popular or unpopular the way Condemned by History has), and the trope may also be People Sit on Chairs since media/trends going up and down in popularity is pretty common. If wick checked, 50 wicks need checking. *
- Three Chords and the Truth: Examples don't seem to agree about whether the trope has to do with minimalistic songwriting or deliberately low-fidelity recording techniques. *
Unecessary Soft-Split
- Giant Flyer: Description is currently divided into five different sections, based on what role a giant flying creature has in the story. Should be looked at to see if these need to be merged or split into separate tropes. *
- Lead Bassist: Soft-split into four types, with at least two traits being distinct enough for a hard split - 1) The bassist is the lead singer, and 2) The bassist is the Face Of The Band. While the former concept is objective, the latter is obviously YMMV (Face Of The Band is already YMMV), so this is the exact same issue Stop Helping Me had before Annoying Video Game Helper was split off of it. Additionally, the description and on-page examples have a problem with Type Labels Are Not Examples, and there's often overlap between the types — for example, Paul McCartney is listed under three types at the same time in both the description (to illustrate overlap between the types) and the example list (regarding his musical career).
Combines Too Many Concepts
- An Axe To Grind: Discusses several related but distinct concepts about axes as weapons, in a very disorganized manner. Needs a description rewrite at the bare minimum. Some of the concepts here might deserve new tropes, but the sheer number of wicks to this page is an obstacle. *
- Atlantis Is Boring: The description leads to three distinct concepts: characters have a hard time finding excitement underwater, writers have a hard time writing media that takes place underwater, and a work that takes place underwater is found boring by the audience and critics. While the last one is Complaining About Shows You Don't Like BUT UNDERWATER!, the second could be split into its own trivia ("Most Writers Are Landlubbers", perhaps?). Wick Check here.
- Bilingual Animal: The scope of this trope has been noted as being unclear. As Amonimus noted in the linked thread, there are two different interpretations of the trope—"animals can have a conversation with both humans and animals," and "animals can both talk human language and make animal sounds." There are only 45 wicks, so all can probably be checked. *
- Good Bad Bugs: Lumps funny bugs with exploitable bugs under the umbrella of "good"; conflates the objective fact of the bugs' existence with the player base's subjective opinion of the bugs.e.g. *
- Higher Self: The page describes a superego type concept, but combines both "moral" and "objective" judgements. Listed on Definition-Only Pages due to the lack of examples.
- Human Notepad: This trope is simply defined as "a character is covered in writing", but the description states that it covers two distinct concepts: helpful notes written on one's arm/hand, and plot-relevant tattoos. These concepts don't seem to have enough overlap (aside from "text on people") to justify them being under one trope, and neither of them requires a character to be covered in writing. *
- Lead In describes two tropes in the same article: a small story that occurs before the main plot, and a popular television show placed before another program to entice viewers to watch the following program. These aren't internal subtropes - the concepts are too distinct to even be sister tropes (the latter definition is more of a Trivia item). The page is split with the first definition and examples, followed by the next definition and examples. On top of that, it only has 39 wicks. *
- Mind Rape: The trope seems to have multiple definitions. The first paragraph describes it as a mental/psychic attack to one's mind that is likened to actual rape due to the violation and exploitation of vulnerabilities involved. Then it goes on to include any other forms of torture (including physical, verbal, and actual rape) that ends up breaking the victim's mind, (usually) causing them to go insane. *
- No Pronunciation Guide: Used for multiple different ideas at once: written works that don't indicate the pronunciation of something ambiguous; media where the audience does hear how something is pronounced yet the work pronounces it differently at different times (with no in-universe explanation); when a dub pronounces something differently from its source language; when the audience is unsure how to pronounce something (Viewer Name Confusion); and when an adaptation pronounces something differently from its source material (Adaptation Name Change). Wick Check here.
- Set a Mook to Kill a Mook: The "status effect" variant and the "circular firing squad" variant are different enough that they should be split, or at least made internal subtropes. *
- Superpower Lottery: Random power allocation, or just getting really good powers? The latter would be Winning The Superpower Lottery (which is a redirect to the trope). *
- Telepathy: Lumps together Mind Reading and mind-to-mind communication, which are two different concepts. Might need a split (the former is a redirect). *
- Zombie Advocate. The page is a mixture of three distinct concepts: humans advocating for actual monsters (as the title and description suggest); humans advocating for any non-human (as the page image suggests); and non-humans advocating for their own race (e.g. a goblin campaigning for goblin rights). *
Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 12th 2022 at 5:21:33 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
underCoverSailsman
Peeks from Under Rocks
from State of Flux
Since: Jan, 2021
Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#375: Jun 12th 2022 at 2:17:53 PM
Haven't looked at the actual trope descriptions, but the writeups look good, and make sense as grouped. Might want to check your Red Links, as some of the Wick Checks aren't phrased the way you think.
Total posts: 699
I think the issue is that a lot of the issues aren't with the description specifically, but the scope of how it's defined on the site. Like I think I added Fatal Method Acting and while the description itself isn't the problem, the scope of the item isn't specified in the description, leading to an unclear definition. Or maybe I'm stretching.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.