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Tropes Needing TRS cleanup and discussion thread

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There's been a lot of talk lately about how Tropes Needing TRS is getting too long and backed-up, as well as about how many of the tropes added might not even need TRS action at all. It was decided we should make a short-term project thread to clean out the page before we take any more drastic actions.

Some potential guidelines for what might need to be removed:

  • Tropes added without enough discussion or a prior wick check (does not apply to issues such as Not Thriving)
  • Entries that either misunderstand the trope or require more consensus about the trope's usage first
  • Things that already have open or finished TRS threads

Note: This thread is specifically about maintaining the TNTRS page itself and the entries on it, not for discussing potential TRS threads. Please use Trope Talk or the TRS Meta Thread for that.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 7th 2024 at 1:47:52 PM

Tonwen HoMM Fan from Axeoth Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
HoMM Fan
#301: Apr 6th 2022 at 9:54:43 PM

[up]Do you have this wick check on hand anywhere? It will absolutely be needed if we decide to clean it up in the TRS at some point down the line.

"Grandmaster Combat, son!"
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#302: Apr 6th 2022 at 9:56:29 PM

Just a reminder to add it to the sandbox too. This is still meant to be a cleanup, after all... [lol]

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#303: Apr 7th 2022 at 12:56:55 AM

[up][up] Not a proper one, I was just doing an impromptu scan of the Undermined By Reality page itself and ticking the entries there. I'm unfamiliar with the whole repair process and making it legit haha, but I'll try and go for a proper 50-sample examination later (it's past midnight here)

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#304: Apr 7th 2022 at 1:12:34 PM

[up] Since the TRS Queue backlog is so big, do you want to pre-emptively add yourself there and then write an OP when your wick check is done?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#305: Apr 8th 2022 at 6:04:58 PM

Added along with a proper wick check! Does this mean I can add this to the Administrivia/TropesNeedingTRS page? Forgive me for not knowing, but I'm a little unclear on what the difference in function is between that and Sandbox/CleaningTropesNeedingTRS.

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#306: Apr 8th 2022 at 6:06:22 PM

The sandbox is for us to make changes to now and swap out the main Administrivia page when the cleanup and updates are done. I just don't want you to have to worry about re-adding it if it gets deleted in the swap, ya know?

The purpose of this thread isn't necessarily to vet things, I'm trying really hard to rerail us into discussing and cleaning what's already there. (The on page notice is to prevent people from adding bad entries in the middle of our cleanup effort. It's not permanent.)

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 8th 2022 at 9:07:52 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
good-morning Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles from Brazil Since: Nov, 2021
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
#307: Apr 11th 2022 at 4:58:05 PM

Now that The Scream (Edvard Munch) and "The Scream" Parody exist, do you think that The Scream entry can be taken out of the page, since the objection was how the trope was commonly misused as references to the painting? I directed all the cases I could find to the painting page, but I don't know how much more there are.

Edited by good-morning on Apr 11th 2022 at 11:12:24 AM

oh hey how are you doing?
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#308: Apr 11th 2022 at 6:15:31 PM

Well, the title still doesn't say what the trope actually is. We'll need a wick check before we take any action.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#309: Apr 12th 2022 at 8:40:11 AM

Question: can I add things to Cleaning Tropes Needing TRS alone without discussion? I want to add Unfortunate Implications which had a long Trope Talk thread about it that culminated in several calls for a TRS thread.

I also want to add Sempai/Kōhai which relatedly had a thread in initially ATT and later Trope Talk calling for TRS.

Unrelated, but would it be worth it to reorganize Tropes Needing TRS by actual thread reason? Like Unclear Description, Misused, Ambiguous Name, etc.?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Apr 12th 2022 at 11:45:59 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#310: Apr 12th 2022 at 9:06:50 AM

I thought the sandbox was for clearing out Tropes Actually Not Needing TRS?

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#311: Apr 12th 2022 at 9:18:55 AM

Honestly I think the solution is to be less formal about TNTRS, come here when you want to question a specific trope that can be removed from the list, and allow people to add when they have a good argument. It's annoying having TRS requests basically spread between three thread at this point (Wick Check Project, this one — which doesn't even need to have requests, and the meta thread).

[down] Can't we just... undo that? Hypothetically speaking, I still think it being Administrivia actually works against it as it requires a redundant amount of attention.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 12th 2022 at 3:47:37 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#312: Apr 12th 2022 at 10:38:41 AM

[up][up] It is, but people are adding things there so that they can be added to TNTRS when the cleanup's done and we swap.

[up] Sadly, being casual about it is no longer possible now that it was made Administrivia...

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#313: Apr 12th 2022 at 11:24:35 AM

Anyway, since this is a cleanup thread for cleanup, I'm doing more cleanup. Here's an analysis of the "Overlaps" one since "Actually Trivia" seems pretty fine, and the "Shouldn't be trivia" one is so short the only one I could comment on at all is Dye Hard, which seems more like a trope that should be split between trivia and in-universe rather than moved fully. This folder, I'm pretty concerned it's just people who asked about it on the Duplicates trope thread once. I'll only mention the ones I'm concerned over, though.

    Redundant / Overlaps with another trope 
  • All for Nothing and "Shaggy Dog" Story both seem to be about the heroes' effort being moot at the end of the story. They're both similar, but All for Nothing is broader and not necessarily an ending trope.
  • The Chick: It's just a gender-restricted version of The Heart. Yes, but also no. The other big difference with The Chick is that it's needlessly FMB specific, and in our post OG-FMB world, that difference might sound meaningless, but it does exist and does technically alter the trope's definition. Not that I disagree that these two should be merged... It's just more complicated than "girl version", especially since The Heart was never accepted as an FMB role.
  • Dynamic Character: Attracts gushing about characters being complex, and is probably better covered by Character Development and related subtropes. Mentioned here. Dynamic Character is a pre-existing term, like its counterpart Static Character. I disagree with just merging it into Character Development- what's really needed is to make it omnipresent and def-only, like it should've always been.
  • Gun Kata has two "types", the first being fancy moves to minimize your vulnerable area against incoming shots, and the second being hand-to-hand combat where both parties try to shoot a gun while deflecting the other's gun hand. The issue is that the first of these is, for all practical purposes, identical to Gun Fu. The second is a subtrope of, but still distinct from, Short-Range Long-Range Weapon. Sounds like an issue, but may not be suited for this folder since the other version is distinct.
  • Hollywood Action Hero not only has examples with no context, but the concept also overlaps with The Ahnold. ZCE affect all tropes indiscriminately, and The Ahnold appears to be for parodies of the concept, rather than straight examples? That's what I get from the description, anyway.
  • I Can't Dance lacks a clear distinction from Sucks at Dancing. I think the distinction is meant to be that in I Can't Dance they're aware of their problems, while Sucks at Dancing is a comedy trope where the dancer thinks they're good. I don't see an issue from reading the descriptions.
  • Model Sheet: Currently on Definition-Only Pages due to a lack of examples and wicks, it cannot be verified within the work itself. When it can be seen (as unlockable content or separate purchases), this overlaps with Concept Art and Concept Art Gallery. But it's def-only, so is it actually a big deal? The overlap would involve examples, which this trope doesn't have by design or definition.
  • No Immortal Inertia overlaps a lot with Rapid Aging. There should be a discussion on what, exactly, the difference is supposed to be, and either clean up examples or merge the two. The title is also a snowclone of No Ontological Inertia. From what I can tell, the first is an old character revealing their true physical age, and the other is a normal character who starts aging fast... A discussion couldn't hurt, but we shouldn't save such a discussion for TRS.
  • Non-Lethal K.O. and Only Mostly Dead seem to be pointing at the same "video game KO status" concept, with the only confirmable distinction being whether the game calls it "KO" or "dead", except that Only Mostly Dead can be used outside of video games, somehow? Duplicate tropes thread Only Mostly Dead only has one paragraph about games, and the rest is broader. I don't see the issue, and the cited comment is 4tell's, a troper who was repeatedly shown time and time again to not read descriptions and interpret tropes as they saw fit. I'm not inclined to trust their post on the matter.
  • Pinocchio Nose and You Can Always Tell a Liar seem to be pointing at the same "person has a 'tell' for when they're lying" concept. Duplicate tropes thread. One seems to be about a specific character tic for a specific character, and the other is more akin to common micro-expressions and the like that give away a liar, or at least are claimed to. I'm not saying the difference is meaningful, but it does exist.
  • Random Power Ranking is Power Levels except with categories instead of numbers. It's not clear how that distinction is enough to justify two tropes. Random Power Ranking is also misused for power ranks that are in fact random (e.g. trading cards that assign entirely arbitrary numbers to the characters depicted, with no basis from the fiction itself). It may just be the Power Levels description being kind of vague and Random Power Ranking basing itself on Power Levels, but I'm not actually sure what either tropes are enough to compare them. That might just be me, though. Or it might point at a broader issue beyond a potential overlap.
  • Ruined FOREVER: It's been pointed out in the complaining cleanup thread that it's often used as a less strict version of Dethroning Moment of Suck, since you don't have to sign your entries, can add as many examples as you want, and are encouraged to write in a completely emotional tone with no attempt at objectivity. In addition, a 2012 TRS thread raised concerns that it's redundant with Fan Dumb and They Changed It, Now It Sucks!. The former Darth Wiki page Wall Bangers was sent to the Permanent Red Link Club exactly because "DMOS but with less restrictions" was redundant and allowed unrestrained complaining. I mean, yeah... I've never been a huge fan of TRS'ing Darth, but I can see why people would want to here.
  • Short Story Long: This trope is redundant to Pacing Problems, with Arc Fatigue, Ending Fatigue, Exponential Plot Delay, Filler, Padding, Prolonged Prologue, and Slow-Paced Beginning completely duplicated, and only Fake Longevity, Overtook the Manga, Trilogy Creep, and Writing for the Trade being separate. That's a ratio of 7:11 tropes that are already present. Overtook the Manga isn't even about a short plot taking longer to finish (It can cause a Gecko Ending instead), Writing for the Trade would actually be a better fit for Pacing Problems as it isn't about extending a shorter plotline, but about how different formats can cause pacing problems even when the story is exactly the same. What's more, the wicks from work pages generally indicate ways in which characters make stories take longer by padding it out within the work, not ways in which the work added elements to divert from the plot. Then perhaps we make it IUEO? Eh... maybe.
  • Shielded Core Boss: Having a weakpoint and that weak point being physically different seem different, given talk on the now launched Broken Armor Boss Battle draft. No link to the draft, and I'm not sure why it's in this folder, it's not compared to anything. I'm not sure what this example is even trying to argue.
  • This Is Wrong on So Many Levels!: Redundant to Sick and Wrong, and a stock phrase to boot. Would like more than two comments (this is basically a ZCE in Administrivia entry form), but it does seem redundant.
  • The Wall Around the World and City in a Bottle: TWATW describes "a barrier that completely isolates a civilization from the outside," while CIAB is "a civilization that is completely isolated from the outside". As the former is not limited to literal walls but includes any kind of fully isolating barrier, it appears to be a necessary part of the latter that would be redundant to trope separately. Any examples of literal walls that don't create a CIAB are likely covered under The Great Wall (wall to keep something out) or Walls of Tyranny (wall to keep you in). City in a Bottle is already here for needing to be renamed, so I'm not sure if that'll impact this at all. Worth mentioning, though.

I also might try my hand at splitting "Subjective / IUEO" because there's no reason to combine two wildly different things. Previous analysis on that folder here.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 12th 2022 at 2:26:03 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#314: Apr 12th 2022 at 12:19:16 PM

Rereading to check (since we added that one in the first place), Only Mostly Dead's description doesn't appear to actually say what it is, it just describes relations to other tropes.

If this description was an example, we'd call it Zero Context.

(The conversation there might've made more sense if it hadn't been an offshoot of "what's the difference between Only Mostly Dead and Faux Death", which is a silly question to ask since Faux Death is clearly about faking in a way that none of the other tropes brought up are.)

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Apr 12th 2022 at 2:22:03 PM

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#315: Apr 12th 2022 at 12:21:33 PM

That's true, it does. Still, I think the whole "game mechanics vs other usage" issue is one of the lesser issues with it. I can see taking Only Mostly Dead to TRS to fix the description, I'm just not sold on the overlap issue.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#316: Apr 12th 2022 at 12:23:07 PM

It'll be easier to tell whether it does or doesn't overlap with Non-Lethal K.O. once we define what it is tongue

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#317: Apr 12th 2022 at 12:33:08 PM

Yes, exactly. [lol]

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#318: Apr 14th 2022 at 1:32:47 PM

Okay, I tried to split up the "Actually Subjective / Should be IUEO" folder on the sandbox, but only one example actually went into the IUEO folder. Others got moved to "multiple issues" for not really being clear about what the trope is, and I wonder if we could make a category for something like that.

Later I'll run through and add more "needs a wick check" astericks. Not sure about removing the ones I took issue with- will need more consensus first.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 14th 2022 at 4:35:33 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#319: Apr 14th 2022 at 2:09:48 PM

[up] Maybe an "unclear definition" folder?

EDIT: Which we do seem to have.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 14th 2022 at 5:10:48 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#320: Apr 14th 2022 at 2:12:01 PM

The issue with the ones I moved was less an "unclear definition" and more that they were inconsistent about if they were objective or subjective, with a lot of them saying to add examples to both main and YMMV.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
nw09 Since: Apr, 2018
#321: Apr 15th 2022 at 12:19:13 PM

Should we add Non-Actor Vehicle? It relies on knowledge of what the actor has done previously, so it should be Trivia.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#322: Apr 16th 2022 at 10:54:20 AM

So, I was thinking of adding Agent Mulder and Agent Scully to the list. Not because they are misused, but because I think this is really one trope- the “Believer and Skeptic Duo”- unnecessarily split into two pages. Both pages outright say that the Mulder is always paired with the Scully, and a major part of the trope is the contrast, so I think they should be merged into a single trope that focuses on the dynamic between them. What do you think?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#323: Apr 16th 2022 at 11:23:05 AM

Uh, idk, if anything I'd rather do the opposite- keep the separate and rework them to not rely on the other so much. Ensemble tropes are the devil, and if there's a lot of usage for both that aren't paired together, then...

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#324: Apr 19th 2022 at 10:12:34 PM

On a similar note, I am thinking of adding Driven by Envy and Green-Eyed Monster to the Duplicate tropes folder because I cannot tell the difference. Apparently, the difference is that Driven by Envy is when the character acts on it… but I cannot remember a single example where that DOESN’T happen- if not, why even bring the envy up? Bottom line, I don’t think there is a meaningful difference here.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#325: Apr 20th 2022 at 7:02:52 AM

I just added several entries to Cleaning Tropes Needing TRS. Should I add them to the Administrivia page as well? Probably an obvious answer but I'm just running it by here.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

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