We're past the three day mark in case anyone thinks we're ready for a crowner. I haven't been feeling the best today, so I don't feel up to compiling the options myself, but I'll make a crowner if someone else makes a list.
I got a rock for Halloween.A crowner may be produced using this proposal
, though someone has expressed doubt at one option and there hasn't been much discussion after.
I'll hold off on that. Plus, that was made before Re-Power received a wick check and became officially covered by this thread.
I got a rock for Halloween.@Tabs: Just to clarify, my list wasn't a list of several options. It's all one project (or option), of moving tropes and examples around.
On the card game side of things, I personally do see mulliganing and card cycling as a valuable mecanic/common effect in card games. I originally began this project in part because of my frustration at the lack of card game tropes on this wiki; the trope Discard and Draw was listed as a card game trope on the Collectible Card Game Tropes index, even thougha a cursory glance at the trope description will tell you that it's not a card game trope.
Making a new trope on "card game mulligans" gives the current misused Card Game DND examples a place to stay and expands on the Wiki's ability to describe card games more effectively; many card game pages currently suffer from extensive Square Peg, Round Trope misuses due to a lack of suitable tropes for the abstractified gameplay of card games.
Edited by Wuz on Jan 13th 2022 at 7:00:29 PM
I previously suggested doing a Trope Transplant by either moving Discard and Draw's current definition to a new name or merging it with Re-Power, and reusing the name Discard and Draw for a card game trope.
I got a rock for Halloween.I am against merging Discard and Draw and Re-Power, and I believe that they should remain separate (albeit cleaned up and Trope Transplanted). In my observations, there are two major distinct tropes that DND and R-P were used for: "temporarily losing but later regaining superpowers", and "getting your superpowers replaced/changed". They are very distinct tropes that loosely align with the current trope definitions, and merging these two in my opinion will just perpetuate the confusion that we're currently facing.
On a side note, it seems that the uses of "Re-Power" to describe X-Men Secondary Mutations seems to have interpreted the trope name as "re-power-up", or "getting a second superpower power-up". I'm not sure if this is worth splitting into its own trope.
Edited by Wuz on Jan 13th 2022 at 9:42:20 PM
Are you sure "temporarily losing and regaining superpowers" isn't just Brought Down to Normal?
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- That appears to be New Super Power, whose description sounds like Superpower Episode initially, but examples seem to cancel that out.
Edited by Malady on Jan 13th 2022 at 7:51:37 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576@Tabs: My description is flawed. The uses of Re-Power to describe temporarily powerless situations typically use the trope to specifically describe the event where the character regains superpowers. The uses of Discard and Draw to describe temporarily powerless situations focus on the overall "losing your old powers to get new powers" structure. They are both less focused on the "being normal" part than Brought Down to Normal.
Edited by Wuz on Jan 13th 2022 at 9:56:23 PM
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Huh, I didn't know Brought Down to Normal was supposed to just be temporary. Yet another trope to check for confusion with a related trope, in this case its subtrope De-power.
Oh my Jesus Christ. More things to check and more definitions to clean up. I can't believe I started this whole project because I wanted to fix some card game crap.
Anyways, these are my current observations of the definitions that people apply to these two tropes:
- Re-Power:
- Getting one's powers reimagined as a part of a character reimagination.
- The event in which a formerly superpowered character, that has been deprived of their superpowers, regains their superpowers.
- Getting one's powers changed by an in-story process (losing your old one).
- Getting another superpower (without losing your old one).
- Discard and Draw:
- Getting one's powers changed by an in-story process (losing your old one).
- Card game mulligans/cycling.
Edited by Wuz on Jan 13th 2022 at 10:04:41 PM
Maybe there's just three tropes? 1. Permanently exchanging a superpower. 2. Same superpower but different uses in adaptations and Later-Installment Weirdness 3. Card mechanic that gives you a boost from sacrifices.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupSome variant of Old For New, might be another way of phrasing the card...?
Or the powers, really...
We're likely gonna use both, because Old For New's got concision, and Discard and Draw's got witty Alliteration...
Edited by Malady on Jan 13th 2022 at 8:12:14 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576![]()
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Looking at that analysis, Discard and Draw and Re-Power look distinct. I'm leaning toward doing a Trope Transplant for Discard and Draw's current definition without merging it with Re-Power.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 13th 2022 at 10:20:56 AM
I got a rock for Halloween.Ehhhhhhh.........I still can't justify the effort when the name works fine as is. It was commented earlier that Discard and Draw was what you would call the card game mechanic trope, but now that I learned there actually is a technical term (mulligan) I'm still in favor of my earlier solution of just splitting those examples off.
Yeah, seems established enough. I thought it was only a MTG thing, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulligan_(games)
...
And I'd think Discard and Draw is broader than that idea of a do-over, DND allowing card effects like "Discard 2 and Draw 1", where mulligan only drops the whole hand at game start?
Edited by Malady on Jan 13th 2022 at 8:54:55 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576Mulligan in card games is usually a mechanic that lets you change your starting hand, by shuffling some cards from your hand into the deck and drawing new ones. However, it can also happen in some card effects.
The literal "discard some cards then draw some more cards" is usually called "cycling". It is usually a card effect and not a game mechanic. It differs from mulligans because the discarded cards go into their own pile outside of the deck, meaning that it is not possible to draw into them unlike mulligans.
Most Card Game Discard and Draw wicks are actually card cycling and not card mulligans. My previous descriptions are incorrect.
I am sorry for causing this confusion. I am not very good at expressing my ideas in writing, and I often think through topics thoroughly in my mind but leave out tons of details and specificities when writing.
Additionally, regardless of the card game usage, I genuinely believe that Discard and Draw is a terrible name to use in the context of superpowers. As I mentioned in the original post, the "drawing" action does not have parallels with any action one can do with superpowers.
Edited by Wuz on Jan 14th 2022 at 5:55:18 PM
It's a trope with a figurative title but the literal sense is a real concept as well. Which is... annoying, yes. And as far as I can tell, it's not a preexisting term. TV Tropes made it up.
To clarify the mulligan/cycling thing, mulligan is like a do-over which is how I understand it in golf where cards are placed randomly back into the deck, and cycling is replacing a specified number of cards by drawing new ones and taking the old ones (basically) out of play?
Yeah, but though it's not the best name in theory, it's clearly not a terrible name in practice because tropers are largely using it correctly.
Again, I'm thinking we're rushing to move 900 wicks
— which, more often than not, takes forever — when it doesn't seem like there's a pressing need to do so. If it was more greatly misused I would agree, but it's not.
Are these our options?
- Split off misuse related to mulligans
in card games into a new trope (name would be decided with another crowner)
- Rename Discard and Draw (if misuse related to mulligans
in card games is split off, a Trope Transplant could be done with the name Discard and Draw)
- Merge Discard and Draw with Re-Power (if misuse related to mulligans
in card games is split off, a Trope Transplant could be done with the name Discard and Draw)
- Keep Discard and Draw's name and definition the same (not mutually exclusive with splitting off misuse related to mulligans
in card games; mutually exclusive with everything else)
I'm personally in favor of the first and fourth options.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 20th 2022 at 9:33:50 AM
I got a rock for Halloween.
TRS isn't needed for that, but I assume if we keep the name and definition the same but do nothing else, we could still do that via this thread.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 20th 2022 at 9:55:08 AM
I got a rock for Halloween.
Crown Description:
Consenus was to split misuse of Discard And Draw, which is about card replacement mechanics in card games, into a new trope. What should the new trope's name be?

Speaking of which, I tagged Re-Power's page since this thread is now about it in addition to Discard and Draw.
I got a rock for Halloween.