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Ambiguous Name: Discard And Draw

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wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#26: Jan 10th 2022 at 5:14:25 PM

We're also in favor of Replacement Superpower. It could be misinterpreted as specifically referring to the second power, the one that does the replacing, but it doesn't seem likely to get actively misused that way because most of the context to describe that overlaps with the same context that'd be needed for the actual trope.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Malady (X-Troper)
#27: Jan 10th 2022 at 5:22:57 PM

In that you need something to replace. Mmm.

And any gap between power loss and the replacement is presumably covered by De-power or something?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
legendaryweredragon Since: Apr, 2013
#28: Jan 10th 2022 at 7:28:29 PM

I think that Power Replacement would be a better name because this trope can cover things other than just superpowers.

Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#29: Jan 10th 2022 at 8:00:15 PM

[up]Power Replacement or Replacement Power would be good as well (I prefer consistency).

Kirby is awesome.
Mahoxy don't stress so much. from Site-119 (Captain) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
don't stress so much.
#30: Jan 10th 2022 at 10:06:37 PM

Not sure if it's beyond the scope of this thread to suggest this, but would it be possible to transplant the definition of this page onto Re-Power, and rename that trope instead? The name already has symmetry with De-power, which initially led me to assume that it was what Discard and Draw currently is... but it's actually more of an adaptation trope, describing when a character is given different powers as part of a re-imagining of the character. From a quick look at some of the wicks, I don't seem to be the only one confused, either.

Edited by Mahoxy on Jan 10th 2022 at 1:07:30 PM

It's funny because we're all living in a simulation and free will is a lie.
legendaryweredragon Since: Apr, 2013
#31: Jan 11th 2022 at 2:01:20 AM

[up] It is not just the wicks to Re-Power that are confused. A lot of the examples on the page could also just as easily go on Discard and Draw.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#32: Jan 11th 2022 at 2:02:53 AM

Okay, uh, if we're also doing Re-Power, we'd need a check for that one as well.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#33: Jan 11th 2022 at 3:17:19 AM

[up]I agree that we'd need a wick check to show if Discard and Draw and Re-Power are duplicates. In particular, we'd need to see if they're attracting the same sorts of examples.

If someone did a wick check for it, I could broaden the thread's scope to include it in addition to Discard and Draw.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 11th 2022 at 5:19:04 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Malady (X-Troper)
#34: Jan 11th 2022 at 5:31:26 AM

Re-Power could get a full check, since it has only ~140, compares to Dn D's 900+.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#35: Jan 11th 2022 at 5:38:39 AM

All right. I'll wait to see if anyone does a wick check for Re-Power, or if not, maybe we could shift focus for whether to do a Trope Transplant to move Discard and Draw's definition to a new location and reuse the old name for a card game trope.

Either way, if we do merge Discard and Draw's current definition with Re-Power (again, if someone does a wick check for the latter), we could still do a trope transplant by using the former name for card games.

I got a rock for Halloween.
legendaryweredragon Since: Apr, 2013
#36: Jan 11th 2022 at 10:39:19 AM

That's why the previous discussion on Re-Power didn't go anywhere. I couldn't get around to finishing the wick check.

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#37: Jan 11th 2022 at 3:08:36 PM

I can do a quick check of Re-Power. 50 wicks, randomly selected.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#39: Jan 11th 2022 at 3:10:19 PM

The moral of the story here is... "always have the check done first". But yeah, might as well just do the quick 50-wick check and see.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
legendaryweredragon Since: Apr, 2013
#40: Jan 11th 2022 at 3:38:08 PM

Besides that, I actually think that the supposed the differences between the two tropes is actually not sufficient for them to be worthy of being separate tropes anyway.

I say "supposed" because the description of Re-Power is so unclear that I'm really still not completely sure what its definition is. It just rambles without getting to the point like there is a missing paragraph.

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#41: Jan 11th 2022 at 4:05:15 PM

I agree that the description of Re-Power is a complete mess. I'm not even sure the adaptation/reinterpretation part of the trope definition that Mahoxy mentioned (and is written on the page of Discard and Draw) is intended to be a part of the trope, or just a result of the rambling description.

I lean towards the latter; I think the description is just that unfocused that some tropers thought that there has to be some sort of reimagining involved with Re-Power.

Edited by Wuz on Jan 11th 2022 at 8:07:13 PM

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#42: Jan 11th 2022 at 4:36:53 PM

I'm done. You can see the results on Sandbox.Re Power Wick Check.

The low amount of "Reimagination" usages indicates that this is not how most tropers understood the trope.

Definition 2 and 3, "Temporarily Powerless" and "Power Altered", occupy the majority of the wicks. Additionally, while "Temporarily Powerless" is the current definition of Discard and Draw, the wicks of Discard and Draw also use it as both "Temporarily Powerless" and "Power Altered".

The two tropes are basically the same thing.

Edited by Wuz on Jan 11th 2022 at 8:43:03 PM

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#43: Jan 11th 2022 at 4:50:03 PM

I actually want to deconstruct and rebuild these two tropes from the ground up. So discarding the "reimagination" thing that few people uses, there are actually three scenarios described between the Re-Power and Discard and Draw examples/wicks:

  1. Character becomes powerless, then gains new powers, different from their old ones.
  2. Character becomes powerless, then gains their old powers back.
  3. Character gains new powers, different from their old ones, replacing their previous set of powers.

All three can be described as "losing powers then gaining powers". This simplified description is what I think is causing the confusion: Re-Power and Discard and Draw are technically supposed describe different scenarios within these three that I described, but their poor descriptions leads to most tropers only hearing about "losing powers then gaining powers", causing both tropes to be applied to all three scenarios.

(Specifically, Re-Power describes "gaining new, different powers", covering 1 and 3, while Discard and Draw describes "losing and regaining powers", covering 1 and 2; in practise however, both have been used to describe all 3)

Edited by Wuz on Jan 11th 2022 at 9:01:25 PM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#44: Jan 11th 2022 at 4:53:48 PM

Maybe we can merge the "losing power gaining new powers" uses, while leaving the "reimagining" part to salvage yard (related trope to Later-Installment Weirdness and adaptation changes?).

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#45: Jan 11th 2022 at 4:55:30 PM

The correct "reimagination" examples look indistinguishable from Adaptational Superpower Change or New Powers as the Plot Demands.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#46: Jan 11th 2022 at 4:57:14 PM

Didn't find Adaptational Superpower Change. Well, we can move relevant examples there and merge the rest.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#47: Jan 11th 2022 at 5:04:25 PM

I saw Re-Power being used to describe some X-Men Secondary Mutations where they don't even lose their original power. I'm not even sure what to do with this.

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#48: Jan 11th 2022 at 5:10:55 PM

That just sounds like a powerset. Or if the second one surfaced later, New Superpower.

Wuz Since: Jun, 2013
#49: Jan 11th 2022 at 5:36:45 PM

Proposal

As I currently see it, the two main notable tropes that are being conflated on Re-Power and Discard and Draw (due to their poor names and description) are these two tropes:

  • "becoming powered again" (similar to current Discard and Draw description), where a powered character temporarily becomes powerless but regains superpowers, regardless if they're old or new ones.
  • "powers replaced" (similar to current Re-Power description), where a powered character has their powers replaced in the narrative, regardless if they went powerless during the transition process. (provisional name: Powerset Change)

Based on this understanding, I propose the following actions:

  • Re-Power: Redefined to "becoming powered again" (most logical definition for trope name)

  • R-P Examples & Wicks:

  • Discard and Draw: Redefined to be about card game mulligans (most logical definition for trope name)
    • Current description modified into Re-Power (new).

  • DND Examples & Wicks:

Edited by Wuz on Jan 11th 2022 at 9:52:38 PM

legendaryweredragon Since: Apr, 2013
#50: Jan 11th 2022 at 5:39:07 PM

[up] I am not entirely sure if "card game mulligans" is something that is tropeworthy. I know that game mechanics can be tropes but this doesn't really stand out to me as something that should be a trope.

Edited by legendaryweredragon on Jan 11th 2022 at 5:46:49 AM

Trope Repair Shop: Discard and Draw split
24th Jan '22 12:14:31 AM

Crown Description:

Consenus was to split misuse of Discard And Draw, which is about card replacement mechanics in card games, into a new trope. What should the new trope's name be?

Total posts: 145
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