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Fantastic Beasts: The Secrets of Dumbledore

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Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#26: Dec 14th 2021 at 1:55:20 PM

[up] Mmm... Nah, I'm in his corner.

That trilogy gets no credit for people like Filoni and Stover being there to clean up some disastrously stupid decisions.

EDIT: Oops.

Edited by Prowler on Dec 14th 2021 at 2:55:34 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#27: Dec 14th 2021 at 1:56:13 PM

HP isn't the best example either; before the last movie turned out to be a dud people were clamoring for prequels (Hogwarts founders, Marauders, a Dumbledore/Grindelwald one that didn't have Newt randomly shoehorned in)

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 14th 2021 at 3:56:24 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: Aug, 2015
The Head of the Hydra
#28: Dec 14th 2021 at 1:57:31 PM

Yeah there's nothing really wrong with prequels especially if the overall setting is interesting and has a lot of history.

Its just an issue when the prequel is really bad like Fantastic Beasts.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Shadao To be a Master Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
To be a Master
#29: Dec 14th 2021 at 1:58:15 PM

[up][up][up] It's not about the trilogy. It's about the possibility of expanding the world to tell new stories with new characters. If your idea of a franchise is to not make sequels or prequels to beloved movies that hint to a larger world... well that franchise will be long forgotten and you'll be left with a lousy EU that could only repeat the same old Death Star plot over and over again (and a cloned Palpatine to boot).

Edited by Shadao on Dec 14th 2021 at 1:59:33 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#30: Dec 14th 2021 at 2:11:36 PM

People also tend to act like Lucas had no role in The Clone Wars and din't supervise Filoni all the way through six seasons. The seventh is the only one without his involvement. The prequels did a lot of contribution to the longevity of Star Wars and as a whole, did much more good than harm (the SW fandom, on the other hand...).

In either case, the problem here is that the idea was misguided to begin with in some senses. Of all the prequels to the HP franchise people were clamoring for, Newt Scamander's journeys to seek fantastic beasts was very low on the list. The one everyone wanted and thought had potential was Dumbledore-Grindelwald or, at best, the First Order of Phoenix with Harry's parents and whantot.

This is reflected in this trilogy that they tried to softly do both and Newt and Grindelwald-Dumbledore ends of the plot feel like they're strangling one another until the latter pretty much consumed the former by now after they realized they fucked up.

The HP franchise is running on fumes when it comes to expanding itself. This is because A) it was never a particularly expansive universe to begin with (its world-building was by and large tied down to a single school) B) J.K Rowling has a pretty strong grip on the franchise, and the more it expands the more her many faults as a creator are being exposed.

Lucas for his part worked out fairly quickly he couldn't run the franchise single-handedly and thus allowed the EU to take flight and worked with things like TCW. Rowling still seems pretty tight-gripped with HP by comparison.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#31: Dec 14th 2021 at 2:13:49 PM

I may be the only person in the world who sincerely enjoys Crimes of Grindelwald. Which isn't to say that I think it's good. The plot is nonsense, the politics are ugly (gotta love that one of the only Jewish characters in the Wizarding World besides Anthony Goldstein teams up with Wizard Hitler) and as everyone has already pointed out, it has practically nothing to do with fantastic beasts. But, and call me simple if you wish, you can't show me cool magic shit like baby nifflers and a guy packing an entire circus into a briefcase and not expect me to have a good time. I also thought Jude Law made an excellent Dumbledore. He and Dan Fogler are the only actors in the movie that seemed to put actual effort into their performance.

Do not support the Harry Potter series in any official capacity. JK Rowling will never stop pushing for the oppression and erasure of trans people. She will not stop equating all trans women with predators. And she will use every ounce of social standing she has from the Harry Potter fandom in order to do it.

Fucking JK Rowling.

I understand and sympathize. I still like the HP franchise, but I haven't supported it monetarily since JKR's Creator Breakdown. I'm thinking of sneaking into this movie (buying a ticket for another movie, maybe even another WB movie, and simply walking into this one instead), but if I can't work up the gumption I'll just sit out the theatrical run and buy a secondhand Blu-ray a few months later.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
HBarnill Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
#32: Dec 14th 2021 at 3:21:42 PM

My post wasn't necessarily meant to start up a Star Wars debate than it was bashing the idea of prequels but I'll say this: if you need to have a show to fix the problems with the movies, then the movies failed. The audience should not have to do homework. The movies have to stand on their own and they failed. Nobody's gonna do a Star Wars marathon and then watch The Clone Wars in between Clones and Sith, nor should they.

I don't expect any FB show to come along and build up this universe, either.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#33: Dec 14th 2021 at 3:25:20 PM

You're missing the forest for the trees. The argument was about countering your assertion that prequels are this irredeemable concept that can never be salvaged. People simply pointed out The Clone Wars was a direct fruit of the prequels and it's widely seen as one of the best things this franchise has to offer (arguably the best, even).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Shadao To be a Master Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
To be a Master
#34: Dec 14th 2021 at 3:29:24 PM

[up][up] The Clone Wars was not meant to fix the problems of the prequels. It's the logical conclusion of the premise that Lucas set up in the PT era, giving rise to new characters like Ahsoka and Rex as well as the Mandalorian culture. The movies serve their purpose to give us a general, consistent idea of what the PT era was, namely what caused the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic as well as who were the good guys and bad guys.

Once you establish the setting, the stories will follow. And a good enough premise foundation can lead to great stories.

Really, the Wizardry World has it backwards. Newt should have been an Ahsoka character rising from the general prequel films of the Dumbledore-Grindelwald war, not the focus from the onset that somehow leads into the main conflict. If the films started off with Dumbledore and Grindelwald starting off on their "adventures" and then we see side-characters taking prominence as the war escalates to new levels, then you got something of a natural foundation.

Edited by Shadao on Dec 14th 2021 at 3:30:36 AM

alekos23 𐀀𐀩𐀯𐀂𐀰𐀅𐀡𐀄 from Apparently a locked thread of my choice Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
𐀀𐀩𐀯𐀂𐀰𐀅𐀡𐀄
#35: Dec 14th 2021 at 3:32:49 PM

The real problem was the lack of a really marketable title, wasn't it? [lol]

Like, Legendary Beasts somewhat works, but not quite after making it about the Grindelwald-Dumbledore conflict.

Maybe calling it Albus Dumbledore from the start to parallel Harry Potter could work, I guess. Maybe a bit to simple, but that's what subtitles are for!

Edited by alekos23 on Dec 14th 2021 at 1:34:02 PM

Secret Signature
ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#36: Dec 14th 2021 at 4:04:23 PM

A prequel simply titled Dumbledore, with the Grindelwald stuff front and center, would've put butts in seats. But Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them was a pre-existing title and companies love that. It's all about brand recognition.

I don't really mind the focus on Newt, though, since I think he's a pretty good character and Jacob is even better. I really like that there's a major muggle character in the franchise that's not a total dick.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Moroaica Since: Aug, 2017
#37: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:07:25 PM

reactionaries are upset at Depp being cancelled

I mean he was a abuse victim, it would be weird for anyone to not be upset with how he was treated.

Do not support the Harry Potter series in any official capacity. JK Rowling will never stop pushing for the oppression and erasure of trans people

And this is honestly true. JK not only makes money from these films, their popularity and promotion allows her to maintain cultural relevance and for her bigoted posts to gain more attention.

She is a bigot who tactically tweeted when the film got a trailer, she knows what she is doing. This film bombing and the garbage Harry Potter IP to fade to irrelevancy would be the best thing for everyone.

Edited by Moroaica on Dec 14th 2021 at 5:11:51 AM

ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#38: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:22:16 PM

I still don't know what exactly happened with Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. I feel like no one in the media is being honest about it. First I heard that he abused her, then that they abused each other, and then that she abused him. I have no idea what to believe. An audio clip I heard of them talking seems to suggest they were mutually abusive, but that could've been faked.

Since I'm basically completely ignorant, all I'm going to say is that Mads Mikkelsen is generally a better actor than Johnny Depp and I don't really mind the replacement.

Edited by ThriceCharming on Dec 14th 2021 at 6:37:15 AM

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Krory Since: Aug, 2012
#39: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:26:30 PM

Everything I've read indicates that they were mutually abusive; Heard was just a bigger dick in public about it. Both deserved to lose their big roles.

HBarnill Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
#40: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:31:24 PM

I mean Miller was seen assaulting a woman and he still has a role so everyone's a hypocrite.

Edited by HBarnill on Dec 14th 2021 at 5:31:35 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#41: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:33:10 PM

The thing is that even beyond Rowling's anti-trans views, every single attempt by her to expand the Harry Potter universe beyond the seven books (and I guess quidditch for the ages and the original fantastic beasts books) have gone over very poorly.

I haven't seen Cursed Child but nobody seems to have anything nice to say about it. The first Fantastic Beasts is ok, but overall nothing super special. Fantastic Beasts 2 is just a huge mess of a films.

In particular, FB 2 distinctly shows Rowling's limitations as a writer in both the construction of the story as well as its attempt to comment on current political events.

Rowling's books always had something of an issue with the long exposition dumps by characters to explain the actual plot. While this was a problem it was more forgivable or at least less noticeable in book format because books, by nature, can be lengthier and more granular than other mediums. But that becomes a much bigger problem in a format like a film, and it makes it clear that being a novelist doesn't automatically translate 100% to being a scriptwriter (leaving aside evaluations of rowling's merit as a novelist aside).

Moreover, it seems pretty clear that there is some attempt by Rowling to comment on current events with this film (or if not it sure is a hell of a coincidence), and it does so in a way that is not only clumsy and unsatisfying, but also plays into tiresome tropes laden with negative historical baggage. The change to Nagini feels completely pointless as she does nothing in the film besides look scared and be a superfluous love interest to Credence (a secret brother whose existence was never even alluded to before the end of the film). The first major black female character does barely anything of note except die. The heavily jewish-coded character decides to join wizard hitler for baffling reasons. Jewish Hitler apparently has a magical device (the mechanics and lore of which go completely unexplained) that show he's apparently trying to prevent ww2/the holocaust?

Rowling would have been better off retiring with her money and not tweeting, but instead she's so self-important and incapable of admitting her own limits that she keeps making more and more a fool of herself, with her clumsy and thoughtless additions to the lore and terrible tweets digging her heels even further with her anti-trans views.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 14th 2021 at 10:37:00 AM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#42: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:51:55 PM

Putting aside the coding its that characters' actions make no narrative sense or go nowhere.

Grindelwald breaks out and then kills the guy who was being his decoy in jail because... ???

Queeny switches side against the man she's in love with because she wants to be with him ???

Credence is alive because ???

Jacob is back shitting over the emotional ending of the last film because??? (Wouldn't then the memory wipe not work on everyone else?)

Newt is banned from international travel. Wait that goes nowhere.

Nagini was a lady. Well that goes nowhere

Mc Gonagalls is here at the ripe age of -8

Like the movie is awful on its own. Even if JK wasn't queen TERF of TERF Island. (And fuck her).

ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#43: Dec 14th 2021 at 5:56:01 PM

Do you really think Grindelwald actually wants to prevent World War II or the holocaust? I don't buy it for a second. We know his ultimate goal is to subjugate/exterminate muggles. Preventing atrocities is just his excuse.

No, the really fucked thing in TCoG is that Dumbledore and Theseus Scamander don't want to interrupt Grindelwald's rallies because apparently that'll just galvanize his supporters, and then they're proven right. That's Facebook uncle logic. "Racists are only racist because you criticized them for being racist!"

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#44: Dec 14th 2021 at 6:25:45 PM

Unsurprising. Rowling is the epitome of Tony Blair-era New Labour neoliberal idiocy, with all the usual British chauvinism and transphobia sprinkled in. She's always been overhyped as a writer and I have far more respect for what the Harry Potter *FANDOM* did with the characters than what Rowling herself has ever done with them.

MisterTambourineMan Unbeugsame Klinge from Under a tree Since: Jun, 2017 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
Unbeugsame Klinge
#45: Dec 14th 2021 at 6:26:59 PM

I actually did like the first Fantastic Beasts movie, but Crimes of Grindelwald was a total mess.

But indulge me for a minute; what they should have done is tie the Scamander and Grindelwald plots together by having Newt be the proverbial wrench in the works for Grindelwald... without ever making a particular effort to do so. It's just that whatever trouble Newt's having with his animals at the time screws things up for him. By the end of the series, Grindelwald is livid at the sight of Newt, and Newt just regards the whole thing with a kind of confused exasperation.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
Shadao To be a Master Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
To be a Master
#46: Dec 14th 2021 at 6:34:44 PM

[up][up][up] I would say it's more interesting if Grindelwald unwittingly helped the Nazis rise to power rather than being directly responsible for the Nazis that the original Harry Potter Books implied. It's very easy to abuse the Ghostapo trope and I don't really see Hitler himself being interested in magic artifacts beyond propaganda value (Himmler is a different story).

ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#47: Dec 14th 2021 at 7:02:20 PM

[up][up][up] Rowling is a perfectly decent writer. Not great, not terrible. Her strengths were exaggerated in HP's heyday, and now that she's gone bananas and taken a match to her legacy, it's her weaknesses that are being exaggerated (not that she didn't always have detractors). In spite of everything, I think she's a great storyteller. I for one couldn't stop turning those pages back in the day. I was so invested in the story, characters and setting that I didn't notice the flaws for years.

[up] I think that makes Grindelwald too sympathetic. He's as unhinged and opportunistic as any real fascist and should have to own the consequences of his choices. He can't just be an unwitting pawn in Hitler's plans (assuming we see Hitler at all, and I rather doubt it).

Edited by ThriceCharming on Dec 14th 2021 at 8:03:26 AM

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#48: Dec 14th 2021 at 7:37:15 PM

Browsing the thread and Credence was suddenly alive in Crimes of Grindelwald?? Did he do anything important?

[up] Yeah, I'm not in favor of cutting Grindelwald slack. Weird magic World-War-II-preventing planning aside (which I could see justified as "there will be no World War II if there are no Muggles" or something) he is still pretty evil.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
ThriceCharming Red Spade, Black Heart from Maryland Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Red Spade, Black Heart
#49: Dec 14th 2021 at 7:42:00 PM

Yes. Half the plot is about him meandering through France trying to find his birth family and then it turns out (major spoilers!) he's a long-lost Dumbledore heir and some kind of uniquely gifted superwizard that can help Grindelwald.

Like I said, the movie is nonsense, but on the other hand there are baby nifflers.

Is that a Wocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
Shadao To be a Master Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
To be a Master
#50: Dec 14th 2021 at 7:44:25 PM

[up][up][up] That implies that Hitler was a mastermind Muggle who knew the existence of wizards and witches, and then exploited it. No, what I mean is that I don't want Grindelwald to have a direct hand in helping Hitler rise to power, in the We Didn't Start the Führer sense. At best, I want Grindelwald's fascist activities to indirectly inspire Hitler in the same manner that Mussolini did in Italy, but be its own distinct fascist agenda.

Edited by Shadao on Dec 14th 2021 at 7:44:54 AM


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