Misused: What An Idiot

I kinda knew that lol. I just want this off work subpages pages.

Edited by Karxrida on Dec 25th 2021 at 7:16:16 AM

That's improvement enough for now.

Thought for the new rule for WAI in Darth.

• The Stupid Moment:
• Why You'd Expect Otherwise: This is meant to filter out complaints by excluding examples where mitigating traits (i.e. character flaws, too emotionally compromised, no time to think/way to know better) would make idiocy expected.
• What You'd Expect Instead:

Alternately we make it like Dethroning Moment of Suck which states the rules (in WAI's case when you would not expect intelligent decisions) at the top of the page saying to remove any that breaks the rules.

My concern is as the You'd Expect/Instead is already failing to prevent examples where correct judgement should not be expected. Thus we'd risk the same misuse an edit wars over examples others think are misuse as the line between expected/justified and unexpected/unjustifued stupidity seems subjected even by YMMV standards.

Loosening the rules to allow examples others might disagree with seems like it would just make it Wall Bangers 2.0.

Yeah, part of the current issue is that the formatting focuses more on the stupidity than the context around it. The audience is going to expect a character to do the smart thing whether or not that character would do the smart thing, and that's where the complaining comes from. But if we format it in a way that forces people to consider the context, well...

The current format exacerbates complaining. I think, if you want to use a format to cut down on complaining, then the "Why You'd Expect Otherwise" needs to convey "What About the Work Leads You To Expect Otherwise" and then "What You'd Expect Instead" needs to convey "Based On That Information, What You'd Expect Instead".

But, obviously, not such long wording. Perhaps the description can explain what each section means, but I'm honestly not sure any wording will stem the format's ability to exacerbate complaining. It seems to be interpreted as an invitation to complain — that's what you need to address with any template you chose. How can you template it without it seeming like an invitation to complain? I'm not sure the suggested wording achieves that yet.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 26th 2021 at 2:49:11 PM

Why are there a separate option for Flame Bait and "forbid off-page examples"? The Flame Bait tag is the normal way to enforce "no off-page examples".

x2 If this is moved to Darth (which apparently isn't mutually exclusive with the "regulate the formatting" option?) or made Flame Bait then I feel like it won't matter.

Edited by Karxrida on Dec 26th 2021 at 12:30:19 PM

I agree that the "what you would expect" format isn't necessary an immediate solution to this problem. I regularly see it misused as "what would you expect if it was a very reasonable person in a realistic world," when the media in question isn't that. To go back to the Simpsons as an example, you shouldn't expect every character to act realistically all the time. It's clearly a zany show sometimes.

The vanilla "forbid off-page examples" option was intended for if we keep this YMMV instead of moving it to Flame Bait or Darth, since And the Fandom Rejoiced is a YMMV item that forbids off-page examples. We're aware that Flame Bait and Darth already forbid off-page examples.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 26th 2021 at 3:46:33 AM

The question is how we how we communicate/enforce "You'd Expect" has to be within the context of the work as opposed to real-life expectations better than we currently are?

And if they are not currently inclined to follow the existing rules how will more rules make them more inclined? Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped had multiple TRS's to enforce its rules but all failed and it had to be cut. It was over gushing as opposed to complaining like WAI, but it's the same boat in that it's attracting such strong emotional reaction they're unwilling/unable to do the analysis it requires despite repeated efforts.

Maybe we try more rules and if that fails to clean things up we consider cutting then.

Maybe examples need to be forum approved like Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard? Not sure if it works for WAI as it one-off moments as opposed to overall characterization. Is WAI worth keeping if it requires such?

Just to double check, but are the two regulation options mutually exclusive? I don't see anything about them that would be mutually exclusive, but I thought I'd check since I wasn't the one who proposed them.

Either way, moving it to Darth and making it Flame Bait aren't mutually exclusive (since So Bad, It's Horrible and Dethroning Moment of Suck are set up that way), and forbidding off-page examples is the default for both of those (as opposed to how it would be interpreted separately if we kept it as a regular YMMV item).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 26th 2021 at 7:21:39 AM

Personally, I'm in favour of cutting it. The best-case scenario in how it's used is that it overlaps too many existing tropes to have its own identity (in which case, disambig), and the worst-case is that it's an unsalvageable mess of complaining about characters not doing what the fandom wanted them to do, and isn't a real thing in the first place (given all the other tropes that exist).

I could perhaps see making it IUEO, but I'm not entirely convinced that would solve the complaining problem. It's possible that I might be too far into the "unsalvageable" camp to see any good alternative options for it, as the only thing I can really see if cutting isn't an option is Flame Bait and/or "no off-page examples". Although it does surprise me that Flame Bait allows on-page examples for some of its tropes, so does that option mean WAI would become exampleless, or retain on-page examples?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 26th 2021 at 1:33:45 PM

I'm in favor of cutting it too, citing the late Some Anvils Need to be Dropped and its problems with being used as a badge of honor, much as how WAI is used as a badge of shame, as precedent.

I'd say cut to. As plan B make Flame Bait as that would also remove examples (there's enough dislike/outrage over stupidity the reaction is valid even if too problematic to allow examples). Move to Darth as plan C as a compromise and it puts it in one place where we could cut it if it proves too toxic/complainy.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 26th 2021 at 7:30:27 AM

If the ratios stay the same, it'll be both Darth and Flame Bait, and either one would forbid off-page examples on its own.

I'll wait to see what the crowner looks like in a couple of days (or another mod will if I'm not on TRS), since that'll be three days from when I made the current crowner.

If this does become both Darth and Flame Bait, I think it would be reasonable to add both Main.What An Idiot (which would be a redirect until it's dewicked) and DarthWiki.What An Idiot to the Flame Bait index, followed by removing the former after it's dewicked and cut. As far as I know, only YMMV has an index for tagging redirects with YMMV Redirects; I'm not aware of an equivalent for Trivia and Flame Bait.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 26th 2021 at 8:56:16 AM

Flame Bait and Darth Wiki are not mutually exclusive — in fact, almost any Flame Bait page that isn't strictly definition-only has a page on Darth to collect examples. I don't think we need to go that scorched-earth.

We'll probably still have subpages though, since some shows just have a lot of examples. What would we do with that? Would we hide the tab like we do with Dethroning Moment or is it not that dire?

There are alot of Darth Wiki pages that don't hide the subpages so probably not. Dethroning Moment is a bit different when it comes to that.

DMOS is different because the admins added code to prevent tabs for it from showing up. I recall that coming up in its TRS thread from 2015 (which coincided with the thread that cut Wall Banger).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 27th 2021 at 2:35:22 PM

For Darth Wiki move/enforcing You'd Expect/Instead, as any time established character traits/flaws mean you would not expect them to do something otherwise intelligent, how would that make it different than Idiot Ball?

Sounds cool to me! So we can start cutting non-Darth wicks, moving/deleting stuff that isn't on a specific What An Idiot subpage, and deleting or rewriting examples that aren't in the "You'd Expect" format?

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 28th 2021 at 8:02:04 AM

Er... I tried to move the videos and I think something went wrong. Would another mod mind helping me out here?

I guess it's fitting that the page I screwed this up on is What an Idiot!.

Edit: I figured out how to fix it, so it's fixed now.

Edit: Added to TRS Wick Cleaning.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 28th 2021 at 7:58:33 AM

Questions:

• Should ATT be informed about this?
• Should it still be under Stupidity Tropes if it is no longer a trope or YMMV?
  • If we keep it, its description there "Doing incredibly stupid things that no sane person would actually do." doesn't fit the new criteria. How about changing it to "The character has every reason for audiences to expect them to make a smart decision, only to inexplicably make a stupid one instead."?
• The current page quote is "Any first-day chemistry student could have told Ragby never to put sparks near a mystery gas. Unfortunately, Ragby had never met any first-day chemistry students, so it came as a complete surprise to him when the gas passed by Mulch Diggums ignited in a chain of miniature explosions." This is misuse as it state why you would not expect them to know better. Should that and similar quotes be cut?
• Is this page image still a valid example? (It's from a kid known to make poor decisions?)

• Should the page be reworked to better reflect the criteria?

Since the What an Idiot trope is now a flame bait trope, shouldn’t it be removed from YMMV pages since flame bait is among the last things they need?

Edited by BrianKT on Dec 28th 2021 at 8:53:51 AM

Yes; Flame Bait is only allowed on Darth and other Flame Bait pages.

We have 8130 wicks to go through.