May the Farce Be with You would cover only parodies. It wouldn't cover cases of people deliberately modelling their character off of Darth Vader.

From that page: "The episode need not be a parody, and in many cases is an Homage".

Well, I am under the impression that the work as a whole has to be an homage or reference to Star Wars, not just a single character.

That part's true. I guess that leaves this with "the Homage and the non-Homage examples".

So, potential crowner options?

• Disambig between May the Farce Be with You, It's Personal with the Dragon, Expy, and various appearance tropes
• Narrow to focus on specifically intentional Vader reference characters, requiring confirmation to count
• Require all examples to fit a specific list of criteria
• Split into two tropes based on this post

I tried to collect all the ideas that at least had some decent traction.

Unless we specify what that criteria is right now, adding that option is a recipe for TRS purgatory.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 5th 2021 at 3:13:52 PM

Oh yeah, shit, good point. Glad someone caught that before we went ahead with it.

That, and I think the disambig option should link to at least one of the posts that suggested tropes to disambiguate between.

A hypothetical list of criteria I would say that at the very least a Darth Vader Clone should:

• Be a Fallen Hero.

• Be The Dragon to The Big Bad.

• Have some familial connection to The Hero.

I neglected to say more than a single word regarding this earlier because I wasn't completely awake when I made my previous post, but yes, crowner options that say to define something based on a set of standards should specify what those standards are (linking to a post that lists those standards should be fine) so voters know what they're voting for if they choose that option.

Edit: I think this post and this post both have good ideas for what we could either disambiguate between or use as standards for the trope (depending on whether we keep the trope or turn it into a disambiguation page).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 5th 2021 at 11:57:42 AM

Eh, I mean we have figured out disambigs post-crowner before, so I don't see it as big of an issue as the "required traits" issue. But we can link it if you want to link it.

Yeah, I suppose I was overthinking the disambig option since disambiguation pages' contents are already subject to change, so I suppose those traits would mainly be needed for an option related to keeping the trope with a tweaked definition.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 5th 2021 at 1:04:23 PM

To me, a Darth Vader Clone requires:

- A familial connection to a heroic character

- Very deep voice, if metallic even better

- Some kind of life support suit or body-covering armor

- Must be an Anti-Hero at best

- Wields a sword or telekinetic powers (or both)

Without the suit I don't consider something a Darth Vader Clone. I think some kind of Tragic Backstory probably should also be present, but that's just me. I don't think things like Dark Helmet or Zurg should qualify either because those are May the Farce Be with You parodies, though May the Farce Be with You might have to be expanded in that case since it only seems to refer to Whole Plot References or entire episodes based off of Star Wars.

I don't like the idea of disambiguating because I think there is a real trope here, it just might need tighter definition, or splitting into "appearance clones" and "archetype clones".

Edited by PhiSat on Dec 5th 2021 at 1:26:41 PM

Opinions on Knight from Metroid: Samus and Joey? As his name suggests, he's a Black Knight, and also...

• Initially implied to be Joey's long-lost father, later turns out that he was just the guy's sparring partner and rival. However, he still feels a connection to Joey because of it, and helps him inherit his father's ultimate technique (which is the second-last major beat in Joey's Character Arc, the last being Samus and Joey parting ways).
• It's a manga so we can't hear his voice, but he's built like a truck so presumably it's deep?
• Was explicitly rebuilt by the Big Bad in order to serve him, and currently wears armour that conceals everything but his sad eyes.
• Works for the Big Bad but is super-honourable and eventually becomes disgusted enough at himself that he tries to help the heroes. Shortly after this, he commits Suicide by Cop. He's one of the last antagonists introduced, so this takes place just before the end of the series.
• Is a Master Swordsman with Implausible Fencing Powers, and the strongest warrior in the Big Bad's service.

Edited by Prime32 on Dec 12th 2021 at 10:33:53 AM

We've got to figure out what this trope is and if it's even tropeworthy before we can review individual examples.

Yeah, examples like that would probably be best suited for a cleanup thread discussion if this trope ever spawns such a thing.

Yeah I think it can be

1. Appearance Clone (Dresses in dark armor, helmet, deep voice, life support system)

• This would cover characters like All For One, Lord Dominator, as well as direct parodies like Dark Helmet

2. Archetype Clone (The Dragon, former hero, related or at least friends with the main hero, often repents at the last minute)

• Probably the Winter Soldier

3. Both traits

• Black Manta

Edited by Moroaica on Dec 13th 2021 at 3:45:20 AM

The thing is we have tropes that cover the appearance aspect (Black Knight, Dark Lord on Life Support) and the archetype aspect (Fallen Hero, The Dragon). The only thing that makes this trope unique is that these examples are supposed to be deliberate copies of Darth Vader. That's why I think if we want to save this trope we should come up with a way to determine if the examples are deliberate or not.

What would 'confirmed deliberate examples' look like? I can say off the bat that direct parodies of SW notwithstanding, a creator is not likely to outright admit who they inspired by.

(The Winter Soldier's movie version actually is an example of that though)

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 13th 2021 at 6:33:41 AM

I would consider Word of God and In-Universe acknowledgement as "confirmed deliberate examples". Also, if a work is a Divorced Installment, I would consider that a confirmation that the similarities are deliberate.

We have Rei Ayanami Expy which is just Defrosting Ice Queen with blue hair and otherworldliness. A lot of tropes are trope + other trope. That doesn't make them not tropes. What's so different with this one?

Edited by PhiSat on Dec 13th 2021 at 11:06:05 AM

That's another thing I'd be hard pressed to say actually counts, but it'll get saved for another day.

My issue is less that this is trope + trope, and more that it's going about everything from the wrong angle. Like all expy tropes, it assumes the most popular character in the archetype inspired the others, when they could be a regular archetype. I believe this is the case with a lot of expy tropes. And since the check was literally split down the middle in terms of usage, we can't even point to the examples and see what people think DVC is.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 13th 2021 at 1:06:52 PM

When a character is "a Rei" or "a Char" it usually gets instant recognition, to the point where fans of a series might refer to a blond masked rival as "the Char" more often than their actual name.

But even with Darth Vader being such a well-known character, I'd be really surprised to see MCU fans refer to Winter Soldier as "the Darth Vader" and expect other people to automatically know what they're talking about.

Edited by Prime32 on Dec 14th 2021 at 12:31:47 PM

I'm not trying to single out DVC. I think all the Fountain of Expies subtropes should be reviewed along with Expy because these tropes breed shoehorning.

Well, TBF, that's definitely an anime thing. As someone who barely watches anime, I'd be extremely confused if someone referred to a character as "Rei".

Even then though, where's the line? At what point does a common homage/expy become a character archetype of its own? At what point are the creators just using a blonde masked rival because it's become a common trope, rather than to emulate Char specifically?

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 15th 2021 at 3:11:25 PM