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TV Tropes has grossly insufficient moderator numbers for its size

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#1: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:31:17 AM

(Note, I have brought this up privately with at least one moderator but I think this now needs a wider debate)

The kernel of this observation is based on my experience earlier this year with editing suspension. All in the appeal process and getting released for editing took took around two weeks, which is an extremely long time for something that should have been resolvable in perhaps 24 hours. I then did some research based on Wikipedia as a baseline.

At the time I looked, Wikipedia (English) had 6,331,197 articles and had 1089 administrators. TV Tropes had 552683 articles (around 11.5% of the size of Wikipedia) and had (and still has) just 9 mods. We're trying to run a site that's about 11.5% the size of Wikipedia with 0.83% of the mod/admin numbers - if we had proportionally the same number of mods as they have admins we'd be running at 125 or so.

While there are differences in culture between the two websites and I don't have access to other statistics such as number of active users, number of daily edits etc. to fine tune the comparison, we're severely understrength by any metric.

This has several undesirable side effects:

  • Routine actions that can only be actioned by moderators can easily develop severe backlogs.
  • Issues such as vandalism, edit wars and other disputes requiring moderator intervention can continue unchecked until a moderator is online, available and is able to take action.
  • The "echo chamber" effect. With so few moderators, any biases or prejudices towards or against certain editors, subjects, types of content etc. are likely to be reinforced if you only have a few people judging them.
  • Neutrality issues. Due to the limited number of moderators, if you get into it with one of them, it's highly likely the moderator themselves will suspend you / forum ban you / whatever. Generally it's better practice to ask an uninvolved moderator to look at the dispute to avoid a potential conflict of interest.
  • As far as I understand it, there's not a lot of transparency when it comes to choosing new moderators - it's all handled "behind the scenes" and the moderators themselves decide who becomes a new moderator. This is less than ideal as "Who Watches the Watchmen" issues become a major thing and if you have a small group deciding who is allowed to join them, that reinforces the "echo chamber" effect as they are likely to choose people who "fit in" rather than those who challenge the status quo. Over time this can seriously skew the group in such a way that they are no longer representative of the editors as a whole.

So. We need to address this. My initial suggestions are:

  • We formally commit to increasing the number of moderators by a significant factor / number. My initial suggestion would be to have a target number and then a number of new moderators approved per month aiming at that to avoid overloading things. E.g Target is 100, we add 4 moderators per month till we reach that.
  • The selection of moderators is put under the auspices of the editors rather than the existing moderators. Some kind of vote where a user has to garner a sufficient number of nominators and then a formal vote from users with a required percentage in favour outcome - simple majority, 66%, 75%, 90%+ - whatever is deemed to be a sufficient endorsement.
  • A mechanism is available to remove a moderator if they are consistently shown to be misusing their tools.

I'm throwing open the floor here. Intelligent observations, challenges and counter arguments are welcome. Attempts to shut down the proposal or insults are not.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#2: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:41:51 AM

> As far as I understand it, there's not a lot of transparency when it comes to choosing new moderators - it's all handled "behind the scenes" and the moderators themselves decide who becomes a new moderator.

This is a standard practise across the internet when it comes to moderator selection so that it doesn't become a popularity contest,in most cases new mods are chosen based off feedback the mods give to the admins

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#3: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:48:19 AM

"This is a standard practise across the internet when it comes to moderator selection so that it doesn't become a popularity contest,in most cases new mods are chosen based off feedback the mods give to the admins"

I don't know about "across the internet" but on Wikipedia (which is the closest analogue to TV Tropes) it's a public process, see here for details.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#4: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:50:57 AM

So you think we need to start copying wikipedia now?

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#5: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:51:55 AM

I saw what happened when r/pokemon decided to let users make the decision of who to put in charge of moderation. Long story short, those who kept low quality posts out were replaced with those who only wanted low quality posts.

Also, we do not have nearly enough passionate users to get 25 mods, let alone 100. The conversation has come up in the past, but even many of the most hardworking tropers openly don't want that type of responsibility. That's why the idea of the engineer position keeps coming up, so that some users can help out by doing small mod work like editing locked pages so that full mods can handle the bigger things like suspensions.

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Goku Black
#6: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:54:35 AM

Yeah I was going to say well plenty of people would be for individual duties. Very few want the whole thing which as it's so much work.

Which is why the engineer thing seems like a good idea for the future.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#7: Nov 24th 2021 at 6:58:59 AM

^^^"So you think we need to start copying wikipedia(sic) now?"

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I'm saying that your assertion is not backed up 100% - our nearest contemporary certainly has a public and transparent method of choosing admins.

Edited by Exxolon on Nov 24th 2021 at 2:59:23 PM

Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#8: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:01:04 AM

Should we start copying Wikipedia now? No... But look, some ideas can be copied once or twice if they work for someone else. It can't always be applied, but something's not bad just because someone does that.

Also, remember r/pokemon is a forum. While it does have upvotes and downvotes, it's ultimately subjective what counts as a low/high quality post. If anything, the vote quota is there to indicate what people want as well. The wiki generally does not advocate for giving content just because people like/want it, for better or worse. We have a set of quality standards people are expected to follow.

I did always vouch for the engineer position... I'd ask for the cut list, locked pages, Today's Featured Trope and maybe custom titles.

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VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#9: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:01:53 AM

Engineer duty sounds like a good idea. At the very least, there could be a contingent with the authority to approve video submissions.

Maybe the engineer system could also be paired with a hierarchy of page locks, for example:

  • Open: Can be edited by all tropers.
  • Restricted: Can be edited by engineers and higher.
  • Locked: Can only be edited by mods and admins.

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#10: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:05:14 AM

[up][up]Yeah, that was kind of my point. Well, that, combined with the fact that we have a lot of users who see this whole site as a forum. Why else would we have such a problem with Conversations In The Main Page?

I trust everyone I regularly interact with in the forums to vote responisbly but there are so many editors that I only see going in to wonk, that I have no faith in what would happen if they had a say.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Nov 24th 2021 at 10:05:30 AM

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#11: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:08:44 AM

The "Engineer" role certainly has potential. It doesn't address some of my points about the "echo chamber" issue and lack of transparency, but it might help some of the more mundane issues - lack of online moderators to handle tasks etc.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:09:10 AM

This is not new news, it comes up regularly.

The engineer position has been in development for some time, but I don’t think we know how far along it is.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#13: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:11:38 AM

Yeah,we're waiting on the admins to make a decison.

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#14: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:13:09 AM

"we're waiting on the admins to make a decison."

Self-Demonstrating issue is Self-Demonstrating

Edited by Exxolon on Nov 24th 2021 at 3:13:55 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#15: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:13:57 AM

hmmm?

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#16: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:14:32 AM

[up][up]You know the problems with the admins are a separate category from those with the mods, right?

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Nov 24th 2021 at 10:14:38 AM

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:14:41 AM

As it happens to be, we are currently extending some invitations for new moderators - we have found some candidates that we'll be messaging.

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#18: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:21:51 AM

"As it happens to be, we are currently extending some invitations for new moderators - we have found some candidates that we'll be messaging."

Huh. How incredibly ironic. I bring up that there are too few moderators and a lack of transparency about how new moderators are added (amongst other issues). Turns out there are new moderators under consideration at least partially addressing one of the issues but due to the "lack of transparency about how new moderators are added" I had no way to know this. If this gets any more ironic I'll turn into Alanis Morissette.

Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#19: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:23:06 AM

[up][up][up] Yes, but it's an extension of the same issue. Too few people trying to do too many things.

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#20: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:23:50 AM

While we’re at it can the crowners be fixed so we can hold a vote for deeming tropes NRLEP without bugging a mod, who probably have better things to do.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Nov 24th 2021 at 10:24:49 AM

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#21: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:25:20 AM

[up] Er, what has this got to do with this thread? Please don't derail.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#22: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:25:41 AM

[up][up][up]Nah, in the admins' case it's a full-time job, which means they really can't just add more to their numbers. That and they only seem to be interested in the technical side, which is still important, but means that it's unlikely they'll do anything about the community ever.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Nov 24th 2021 at 10:26:02 AM

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Exxolon Exxolon from UK Since: Jul, 2010
Exxolon
#23: Nov 24th 2021 at 7:30:22 AM

[up]Terminology issues? On most sites that would give them the "Developer" or "Programmer" handle. Our "Moderators" are actually "Admins" in terms of their role on the site, a "Moderator" is usually someone who has limited authority over a certain section of a site. No wonder people sometimes get confused.

Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#24: Nov 24th 2021 at 8:58:49 AM

At least to my understanding, all the current mods have to baiscally do all mod duties because there's so few of them. If we had a ton more, would there be a reason they couldn't specialize in areas that interest them (some mainly doing locked pages edits, some keeping an eye on Ask The Tropers reports, some doing crowners and keeping the cutlist clear, etc.)? If that was the case, I think people would be more receptive to being invited to be a mod. I guess there would need to be some kind of roation system for less desirable duties like handling the Edit Banned thread....

Edited by Orbiting on Nov 24th 2021 at 11:59:57 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#25: Nov 24th 2021 at 10:53:14 AM

[up][up] Keep in mind, when Fast Eddie was the admin he was very involved in community stuff and technical stuff. The titles aren't changing just because he's gone, but the new admins are the people who bought the site from him and rarely post as regular users. Unless they're just posting in disguise the whole time, but you'd never be able to prove that.

I'm one of the people who openly said I'd never want to be a mod, but would love an engineer role. I've done moderation duties on another wiki, one that was much smaller than this one, and it stressed the hell out of me. So did having managerial duties at work. I'm just not great as an authority figure; I do my best but I crumble under pressure. I'm sure a lot of other people here feel similarly.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 24th 2021 at 1:55:10 PM

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