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Spider-Man: No Way Home

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#2026: Mar 15th 2022 at 10:43:54 PM

Well extra numbers never hurt, plus theatricality.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2027: Mar 15th 2022 at 10:58:46 PM

I don't think T'challa has ever been shown (in the last few decades at least) as "just a regular guy" once he's juiced. He's pretty shown shattering brick walls and denting steel with his fists while dodging bullets and other lightning-fast projectiles without breaking a sweat.

Kraven is more down-played on the strength side (although the sheer fact he can pummel superhumans with his bare hands is evidence, like he famously does with Vermin in KLH) but his reflexes are always portrayed as basically Spider-Man-lite where he's functionally untouchable unless you're superhuman or catch him off-guard. I don't think he's ever been actually hit by a bullet in the character's history for example, despite being fired at semi-reccurringly.

Granted, I can see the confusion, "peak humans" in comics are bullshit, but both T'challa and Kraven aren't really characters I'd call that given they have explicitly superhuman additives. Fisk, for example, doesn't.

If you want to get into egregious examples there's Vulture who's a septuagenarian with wings.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2028: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:01:08 PM

I always found it weird that Vulture is still running around with a relatively healthy body despite getting the shit beat out of him by Spider-Man. Even suffering a stroke back in Civil War.

Even Doc Ock had all those injuries catching up to him.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#2029: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:06:42 PM

I think Kraven could have an interesting movie, actually. Empahsis on could, who knows if they'll be able to pull it off. But the Egomaniac Hunter trope has some interesting story potential, and it's not something you see all that much in modern Hollywood, and even when you do they're usually just an obvious villain with no real depth. Yet despite that, they're often cool and memorable characters anyway. Done right, I could totally see Kraven working.

Of course, if he's truly not in a universe with a Spider-Man, that's a major misstep. It would work much better to have the solo movie as his villain origin story, setting up a movie where he goes after spidey.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2030: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:10:12 PM

Yeah villain origin stories are in vogue so it would be the best route for a Kraven solo movie.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2031: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:14:29 PM

Amusingly, just like the "Superior Spider-Man" shtick, Ock's body breaking down from battles with Spidey was a plot beat lifted from Kraven's Last Hunt.

Vulture is indeed the most egregious of them all. Ock and Mysterio have super-science to augment their bodies in some fashion, Kraven has mystical herbs, the Goblins have the goblin serum, even Fisk is at least trained in quasi-mystical martial arts. Vulture is legitimately a frail old man with wings (with occasional youth-draining powers, but that kinda sucked), although there's something to be admired about the recurring plot beat of characters thinking Vulture is a push-over because of that and getting a sore reminder that he survived this long for a reason.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2032: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:17:46 PM

I thought Vulture's suit was meant to make him stronger and tougher.

Not that that's great, but he's rarely seen as super imposing physically, so it's more a justification for why he doesn't fold in one punch and can actually hurt people.

Doc Ock is trickier though because aside from his arms he's usually entirely unaugmented right?

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2033: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:23:03 PM

Depending on the Writer, yeah. But Ock is literally a top 3 Mad Scientist in the entire Marvel Universe, so I could easily buy that he augments himself in more minor ways to keep up with Spidey.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#2034: Mar 15th 2022 at 11:36:33 PM

If he's so juiced up why does he fuck around with trying to bring regular ass lions into a fight, etc?

Its good enrichment for them.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2035: Mar 16th 2022 at 12:54:49 AM

Even before the niceties of how strong Kraven or T'Challa or Vulture or whatever really are, it's worth a reminder that characters have been punching above their supposed weight class ever since, thousands of years ago, someone decided to concoct a story where mythic hero David defeated Goliath with a sling. Characters who are not as strong as other characters being able to fight other characters who are explicitly stronger than they are is not an inherent writing flaw, and it's not a very defensible position to pretend that it is.

If anything, trying to sell that as a problem is effectively attempting to - unwisely, imo - enforce an unnecessary story limitation (not to mention, depending on the length and breath of the media, opening said media up to issues of escalation and repetition) and keep characters in strict lanes for a reason that is narratively arbitrary. People tend to enjoy stories where characters are challenged by things outside simple physical force, and likewise tend to enjoy stories where characters succeed against seemingly insurmountable odds. Escapism and whatnot.

Strict separation of characters by weight class is for Death Battle and works specifically designed around weight classes being important. It's not something that's particularly applicable elsewhere. This is because unless - again - that separation of strength is specifically a core concept of the story, characters' strengths exist to be in service of the story, not the other way around.

Keep in mind also that Spidey writers (and especially Stan Lee) rarely ever seemed to conceive villains based on overt strength advantages, and Stan in particular liked fights that were strategic in addition to being settled by brawn. Thus most of Spidey's villains have lateral ability to his (this one has zappy powers, this one has flight powers, this one makes robots, this one is a poisons expert, this one is a master illusionist, this one's made of sand, this one's made of water, etc) that forced Spidey to think and fight at the same time. This includes Kraven and Vulture.

The big exceptions offhand are Rhino and (ugh) Morlun. And Rhino is another "is typically depicted as stronger, so Spidey fights smarter to beat him" enemy.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 16th 2022 at 1:23:46 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2036: Mar 16th 2022 at 1:01:59 AM

Vulture is one of those top villains in the rogues not because he's physically threatening, but because he's still a pretty cunning and dangerous opponent, like there's an aerial aspect to his fights with Spidey that's only shared with the Goblin so fights between him and Spidey are always bound to be visually interesting.

Plus he is one of the few baddies to unmask Peter though he didn't recognize him at the time.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#2037: Mar 16th 2022 at 2:17:15 AM

His reaction to which is oddly hilarious when he realises that he's spent years fighting just some kid.

If it had happened a few years later he'd have recognised Peter Parker, CEO.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2038: Mar 16th 2022 at 2:32:22 AM

Then again, no one recognized Peter when he was hanging out with supervillains.

Guess these types don't really care about rich people.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#2039: Mar 16th 2022 at 3:15:05 AM

[up][up][up][up] This is an absolutely ridiculous reach. No-one is saying that characters can never fight out of their weight class, just that some of the depictions that comics use feels incredibly weak.

David didn't beat Goliath by walking up to him and laying him flat with a punch. But comics often have superpowered characters get flat out physically menaced by people who are nowhere near strong enough to plausibly do so, and it's pretty lazy.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#2040: Mar 16th 2022 at 6:23:27 AM

Eh, just do what Thor does and pretend Spidey was "holding back" every time he puts in a weak showing. Physically overpowered by a normal person while mentally monologuing his frantic search for a solution to this predicament? Sounds like "holding back" to me!

I mean, they already made that claim with Kingpin. "Spider-Man has never truly been physically challenged by Kingpin; Please ignore all of those times when he was physically challenged by Kingpin."

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CheapMarzipan A Low Cost Confection Since: Dec, 2020 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
A Low Cost Confection
#2041: Mar 16th 2022 at 6:40:11 AM

Unlike Kingpin, Kraven has actual superpowers due to his herbs so I feel like it makes some sense for him to be a physical challenge to Spidey.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2042: Mar 16th 2022 at 7:22:55 AM

Yeah I don't see the issue with Kraven myself. He is explicitly Superhuman.

And Kingpin has been consistently portrayed as 'Only pretty darn Comic Book Human Strong' since several decades at least now, around the time he became a Daredevil villain.

EDIT: Also, another thing about Peter, he also became stronger during the years. His powers probably evolved with his age.

Edited by Forenperser on Mar 16th 2022 at 3:25:34 PM

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#2043: Mar 16th 2022 at 8:52:52 AM

Peters power is technically the "proportionate" strength of a spider so in theory his strength should grow exponentially as his muscles increase with use/age.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2044: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:45:29 AM

But comics often have superpowered characters get flat out physically menaced by people who are nowhere near strong enough to plausibly do so, and it's pretty lazy.

To note, this isn't actually what you've been saying up until now.

You haven't been chiding instances where comics allowed weaker characters to physically overpower stronger characters. You've been claiming that the characters "suck," because they're allowed to win against or even threaten characters physically stronger than them, with no regard to context (hence my pointing out that that's in actuality how storytelling works). And frankly, if your issue is with comic books allowing stronger characters to job in physical confrontation, then your issue is not with the characters themselves.

If this is what you meant the whole time, it doesn't even apply to the characters you're attempting to level it against anyway. Kraven MO is not and never has been to just walk up to stronger opponents and physically overpower them. As has been explained more than once on this thread, he works by using tactics or weaponry to wear them down. Neither is that typically the case with Black Panther.

As I said before, and in relation to your "David didn't punch Goliath in the face," the MO of these characters is not - in fact - to just challenge characters to a fistfight in the middle of the street. If your logic is that David gets a pass for using a weapon, then that even invalidates [down] more obvious examples: weapons, like tactics and strategies, weakpoints, etc and so on, are all plot devices writers and storytellers use to allow characters to overcome insurmountable odds, and most less powered characters in comics do use weapons.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 16th 2022 at 11:39:05 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2045: Mar 16th 2022 at 10:49:54 AM

Yeah, if that would be your biggest issue, characters like Captain America or Batman would be far better examples for "Inexplicably punching out of their weight class because Rule of Cool."

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OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#2046: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:37:21 AM

You can get some leeway with Cap at least because Super Soldier.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2047: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:40:03 AM

Not in the comics. Comics Cap is explicitly buffed to peak human, in contrast to movie Cap who is explicitly has super-human strong. Though again, that's not really a problem regardless.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 16th 2022 at 11:40:32 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#2048: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:43:38 AM

Though Ultimate Cap is explicitly superhuman.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2049: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:46:04 AM

I mean, Batman is also "superhuman" by real life standarts. What he is doing is outright physically impossible in the real world. Just like what all so called "Peak Humans" do.

But in the Comic Book world, there is a difference between "Peak Human" and "Superhuman".

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#2050: Mar 16th 2022 at 11:48:50 AM

If a character is peak human, that just means that humans of its world are capable of that. How it lines up to reality isn't too important.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 16th 2022 at 11:50:05 AM


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