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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#876: Jan 5th 2022 at 1:05:03 PM

It's possible Hank figured out how to let some things keep their mass (like people in the suit) while others don't (the Tank, the Trust a bro truck).

Recall Scott was also able to briefly beat up Black Widow despite shrinking, but could carry that shrunken water Gasoline tanker truck and chuck it at War Machine.

Pym Particles are mysterious man.

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C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#877: Jan 5th 2022 at 1:18:48 PM

The "you keep your mass when shrunk" explanation is probably the worst bit of pseudo-science in the whole MCU, since it is both rather easy to understand and permanently contradicted by what appears on screen. They should have used some technobabble instead explaining why Scott can ride an ant without crushing it but still give punches as strong as if he were at full size. I headcannoned that the suit is specifically designed to allow that sort of discrepancy while other shrunk/enlarged objects have their mass modified accordingly.

I remember as I type this that Scott is shrunk in AM2 without wearing the suit and shows no ill effects. Granted, he was only reduced to half his size but still.

Edited by C105 on Jan 5th 2022 at 10:19:03 AM

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lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#878: Jan 5th 2022 at 1:30:23 PM

What's frustrating is that the "you need special equipment to survive while shrunken" thing is an invention of the movies, the comics never had it and it's baffling to think they set up this brand new restriction to the particles... that then keeps getting ignored as writers just use them like the comics do.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#879: Jan 5th 2022 at 1:33:33 PM

Did the movie say anything about the air thing? I remember it was in promotional material but I don’t remember it in the movie itself

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#880: Jan 5th 2022 at 2:06:05 PM

The successful test of the lamb didn't seem to have any struggles breathing. I think the implication that shrinking without a suit is dangerous comes from the fact that Cross just wasn't as good with his shrinking tech, hence it being lethal for most of the movie.

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Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#881: Jan 5th 2022 at 2:20:43 PM

Pretty sure that was part of the reason the heist had a deadline because they needed to steal the data and everything else cross had before he got a reliable formula.

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#882: Jan 5th 2022 at 2:53:32 PM

So, I saw a lot of comments recently stating that the show managed to do something quite unique:

While they buffed up Fisk as a physical threat significantly, they still managed to make him 200% less intimidating and engaging at the same time.

Mostly due to him losing his cunningness, always being ten steps ahead and never doing anything rash except in some very selective, emotional situations, instead just coming across like a dumb brute, who goes in headfirst without analyzing the situation and who also gets knocked on his ass constantly.

Would you say that this is an accurate assessment or is it overblown?

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 5th 2022 at 12:05:26 PM

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dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
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#883: Jan 5th 2022 at 3:04:39 PM

Mostly due to him losing his cunningness, always being ten steps ahead and never doing anything rash except in some very selective, emotional situations, instead just coming across like a dumb brute, who goes in headfirst without analyzing the situation and who also gets knocked on his ass constantly.

It's probably a perception that comes with the fact that we spent a lot of time with him in Daredevil to know him very well, compared to here in Hawkeye.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#884: Jan 5th 2022 at 3:09:08 PM

He was at least one step ahead here

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Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#885: Jan 5th 2022 at 3:11:41 PM

As someone who hasn't watched Daredevil, I can't speak as to how Fisk came across in that show. However, in Hawkeye proper Fisk seemed to match up decently well with what I've heard about Daredevil-Fisk. Sure, him letting Eleanor mosey off knowing she had incriminating evidence in her safe was kinda not the smartest, but I'd chalk it up to the writers feeling like the show needed at least one twist no matter how well-executed it was. Overall he still seems on top of things, just maybe not as on top as he could have been.

Plus, I'd argue that we saw him at his worst here - Kate is discovering her mother's mob ties (and, we see in her fight with him, totally willing to throw hands because of it) at the same time "Ronin" has supposedly returned to wipe out more of Fisk's infrastructure, add that on to Maya having second thoughts about her revenge mission while Fisk still cares a lot for her and it's understandable he's not making the best decisions.

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FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#886: Jan 5th 2022 at 4:15:29 PM

Didn't Ant-Man have it that regular exposure to Pym particles without a proper suit caused brain damage, and that's what caused Yellowjacket to go crazy?

My personal theory on discrepancies regarding Hank's explanation of how Pym particles work is that they're vastly more complicated than we're told, and he gave Scott the ELI5 version rather than the master level physics course he'd need to really understand them. Though he probably gave him a more accurate explanation off-screen, once he started to see Scott as a successor rather than just a tool for one mission.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#887: Jan 5th 2022 at 4:48:55 PM

I think it's mostly people unfamiliar with comics. Characters being slightly different in different franchises because of writer differences and just different tones of different series is a long staple of comics. Fisk in particular isn't safe from this because he's often shared between Spider-Man and Daredevil and thus pretty regularly slightly different in both to suit respective vibes, which actually isn't far from the issue here.

Daredevil is his "home" since Miller made him Murdock's arch-foe, and Daredevil is a extremely violent, gritty noir story of criminal conspiracies, so that Fisk tends to be very empathized as a The Chessmaster criminal mastermind who's also terrifying and extremely violent, which is basically where Fisk was at in DD-season 3. Fisk in Spider-Man comics has room to be a lot more light-hearted because Spider-Man stories have a lot more room to be light-hearted themselves, so you often get a slightly different Fisk who's a big threat but with his "wheels within wheels genius strategist" traits downplayed in favour of his raw physicality (yes, yes, except for that one stupid time in Back in Black, we know) and less prone to just be terrifying.

You can see more or less that exact conundrum here. Fisk is still a dangerous and ruthless criminal who retains his scheming essence and brutality, but Hawkeye is a much more lighthearted romp than Daredevil, Fisk couldn't show up here as a manifestation of gentrification graphically getting minorities murdered and decapitating people with car doors left and right. This show had a pretty baseline "Lee-Dikto" Fisk: smart but not a omniscient monster, more defined by his direct physical threat and criminal connections than his machinations per see.

You could see a similar approach to the character in Spider-Verse, with his strategic prowess being small to non-existent (in fact his central scheme is short-sighted and stupid even In-Universe) but he's a behemoth in a straight fight and has massive criminal connections. It was just different there because he was the main villain in that and a supporting one on here, but another point of comparison would be Spider-Man for the PS 4.

With that said, you could of course argue how good of an idea it was to reintroduce Fisk in a show so far from his usual stomping grouns and that some things could have been done better (him just ragdolling Kate several times and never going for the kill was comical). Myself I enjoyed it, despite some criticisms, and felt it still retained the character's spirit. I thought it was particularly fun to see this "peak human" Fisk who can just shrug off point-blank explosions as portrayeed by D'onofrio.

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#888: Jan 5th 2022 at 6:40:49 PM

Didn't Ant-Man have it that regular exposure to Pym particles without a proper suit caused brain damage, and that's what caused Yellowjacket to go crazy?

Not really. Pym Particles did take a very unclear "toll on the body" which is why Michael Douglas couldn't put the suit on again. What exactly that meant was entirely undiscussed. And that's with a proper suit made by Pym. Cross was just a psychopath who wound up drunk on power.

In regards to Kingpin being not as threatening, Daredevil did yo-yo on him in that regard plenty. Part of what made him terrifying were those emotional moments where he lost it. I haven't seen S3 of the show (dropping it due to the show being like, super racist and just not acknowledging that). Like, Kingpin was a fantastic mix of a Magnificent Bastard who was also juuuuuuuuuuuuust unstable enough that getting a full read on the man was impossible.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jan 5th 2022 at 9:46:32 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#889: Jan 5th 2022 at 6:48:45 PM

I assume Pym suffering from some kind of exposure is just a quick excuse to make sure he doesn't get in the suit so Scott can do all the work.

[up] Ah the unfortunateness that Jeph Loeb's racism against Asian people being visible in the Netflix shows.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#890: Jan 5th 2022 at 7:40:46 PM

Just finished Hawkeye with my mom. I really liked it. Wandavision is still my favorite of the Disney+ shows, but it's hard to pick between Loki, Hawkeye, and Falcon and Winter Soldier for second place, they're all fantastic (What If is in a separate mental category). My mom's favorite was Falcon and Winter Soldier.

I'm surprised to hear the opinion that this show's episodes blur together, since I thought it had the strongest episodic structure of all the shows next to Wandavision. Wandavision's concept is that every episode is a sitcom from a different decade, while Hawkeye's concept is that every episode takes place over a single day, and each episode is one day closer to Christmas. Each episode was themed around one of the Christmas things Hawkeye was gonna do with his family in the days leading up to Christmas, each episode had him calling his family to update them on the situation, and the show was effectively a count-down episode by episode to Christmas-time.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#891: Jan 7th 2022 at 5:04:44 PM

Honestly, if I could think of a weakness with Hawkeye, it's the story's constantly shifting focus. For the first three days/episodes, it was about Ronin and Maya; for the fourth and fifth episodes, the focus shifted to Yelena; then in the finale, it was all about Fisk. Even though Fisk was the "big bad" behind it all, I never felt like that was a greatly consistent throughline.

And for all this talk about Clint being worried about the "big guy", we actually never get a scene between him and Fisk...and no explanation for why Fisk and the Tracksuits want Laura's watch so badly.

Okey Dokey!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#892: Jan 7th 2022 at 5:24:49 PM

I really liked that episode 1 started with Kate backstory, episode 3 started with Maya backstory, and episode 5 started with Yelena backstory. That was really cool.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#893: Jan 8th 2022 at 6:45:38 PM

That moment where you're watching Hawkeye and you realize the opening scene of the first episode was literally about ten years ago in universe.

Hell, I was re-watching Shang Chi and realized the events of Iron Man 3 also took place a good ten years ago (if the movie took place in 2013 like when the film aired in real life).

And of course, it's now been almost that long in real life as well.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#894: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:21:52 PM

A comic book universe where time passes

That’s so weird

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#895: Jan 8th 2022 at 7:30:40 PM

I'm reminded that Young Justice with its time-skips has now reached a point where Billy Batson is a young adult.

Like wow the famous "kid who turns into an adult form" is now an adult. Crazy.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#896: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:21:33 PM

Yeah. That is nuts.

Another thought that hit me:

Kingpin's existence, while not 100% confirming the events of the Netflix Daredevil, may mean the Hand exists as well.

The same hand who kidnapped a bunch of people in New York at random.

So to anyone wondering why Jack trained himself in Swordsmanship....there you go.cool

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#897: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:47:07 PM

Does Jack need a reason to train in swordsmanship? Rich idiots pick up weird hobbies like that all the time.

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#898: Jan 8th 2022 at 8:52:04 PM

Fencing, in particular, is an activity commonly used to convey that a character is a rich, pretentious snob. There are so many "Rich asshole who is, like, the best fencer, you don't even know," characters out there.

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#899: Jan 8th 2022 at 9:13:14 PM

European aristocracy and old money used to be big on fencing and dueling, particularly in Germany and its affiliates.

But even disregarding that, there's some absolutely random famous fencers, like english heavy metal legend Bruce Dickinson (lead vocalist of Iron Maiden), who's inexplicably a world-class fencer despite his working class roots and being on-and-off in fencing. Jack would be far from the weirdest.

Edited by Gaon on Jan 8th 2022 at 9:14:43 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#900: Jan 8th 2022 at 11:49:49 PM

I love that once you get past all the red herring, Jack is just this sincerely goofy rich eccentric who likes swords and swording things.

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