Misused: Knight Of Cerebus

Alright, it's time to tackle one of the most grossly misused tropes on this wiki.

So, this trope is an utter mess. As it is one of the most wicked and most popular tropes, it also has some of the biggest misuse. A Knight Of Cerebus is supposed to be a villain who signals a lasting tone-shift in an already established series to something darker, but is often used as any dark or serious villain, especially one who darkens the tone of every scene they're in, even if the tone returns to normal after their exit from the story, or if they are introduced in the first installment, and thus there isn't an established series tone, as a synonym for Vile Villain, Saccharine Show and Viler New Villain, or even in cases where the work itself is already dark and serious. It's also often used as "Complete Monster but on objective pages and can bypass the voting system" and lists every evil deed the villain has done, and/or to gush about how cool and edgy the villain is. There are even a few non-villain examples describing heroic characters who bring somberness to every scene they're in.

A rename might help, but I dunno if "Tone-Shifting Villain" would be a good title. After all, it doesn't get the "serial work" across.

Across 80 wicks, only 6 got the definition right- and even those I'm unsure of as, with the exception of Scar and Westcott, they don't go into too much detail.

Wicks Checked: 80/74

Edited by MasterN on Oct 20th 2021 at 12:42:21 PM

I personally think the trope should just be merged with Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, don't see much value in it.

The misuse is true. I'd support the rename but the title is indeed ambiguous, "Tone-Shifting" can imply Lighter and Softer as well.

First, since the trope is "Cerebus Syndrome as a character", I'm interested in a parallel check if Cerebus Syndrome is also misused. If not, then the problem is probably not with the name. And looking at the article I may see what's the issue:

Nothing in the description says they bring permanent dark tone change, except the very last paragraph that only says "long-term tone shift in an episodic work". When it's immediatelly followed with "can overlap with Vile Villain, Saccharine Show" and even Laconic.Knight Of Cerebus has a vague "When they show up, things get dark!", naturally many would think the trope is about "a villain that is Darker and Edgier than other villains".

I am conflicted if Knight of Cerebus is not tropeworthy. If all misuse can be replaced by Cerebus Syndrome, Viler New Villain or Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, how much would be left?

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 21st 2021 at 9:20:51 PM

i feel like it's a legitimate subtrope. for instance, if a one-off villain of the week is much nastier than the show's usual fare, that's Vile Villain, Saccharine Show. if every villain after that villain follows their lead and the show becomes darker as a result, it's still VVSS, but it's also Knight of Cerebus.

i think the trope is pretty okay as is and the main concern should be making it clear enough to lessen the misuse rather than trying to modify it.

To be honest, I think doing a Cerebus Syndrome check is a good idea. I’ll get to work on it.

also, interesting perspective, but what about the many examples of “dark and serious villain in already dark and serious work” I found, where the trope is used as “villain is even more competent/evil than prior villains that were already genuine threats”?

Edited by MasterN on Oct 21st 2021 at 11:38:40 AM

Mmm, normally I'd be in favor of keeping the trope but with this much misuse, that's an uphill battle. I'd support a rename, but as pointed out above, Tone Shift Villain can also work for a villain who makes things lighter and softer...

...Which actually might not be the worst play. But then it'd make more sense to expand to Tone Shift Character, as a villain will almost never be responsible for a happier toneshift.

If Cerebus Syndrome isn't as bad, I'd honestly support merging into the supertrope with a note about how sometimes it can be caused by a specific character. But let's wait for that check first.

i could get behind that... and Tone Shift Character doesn't sound like a bad idea either.

In addition, the title doesn’t make it clear that the shift has to be permanent- after all, any villain in a lighthearted show can shift the tone to something more serious.

Edited by MasterN on Oct 21st 2021 at 11:41:19 AM

As Amonimus pointed out, the description never actually says the shift needs to be permanent.

But NOT having it be permanent runs the risk of making it People Sit On Chairs, as again, a lot of villains make a work’s tone more serious just by showing up.

I like the idea of merging into Cerebus Syndrome.

I'd say the shift shouldn't have to be permanent if it lasts for at least the villain's arc or storyline. Obviously if it's just one or two darker moments, then it wouldn't count, but the shift shouldn't have to be permanent to be tropeworthy.

That's assuming we keep it at all, obviously.

Here's the ongoing Cerebus Syndrome wick check.

Okay, so I've been doing the wick check and so far it's not looking good for Cerebus Syndrome. First off, I'm fairly certain that most of the video game examples are misuse because the trope has to be a serial/episodic thing. Second, it's already on Square Peg Round Trope and the concerns on that page are being echoed. I'm not saying we should make a decision right away, I'm just reporting what I'm seeing.

I don't get why "serial/episodic" is a requirement in the first place, you can have a movie that starts like nothing unusual only for someone to prove that Anyone Can Die.

I think to prevent tropers from adding, say, movies with a dramatic climax and a less-dramatic beginning- which is almost every movie ever.

That does sound a lot like a "longer Wham Shot".

And the Trope Namer (yadda Trope-Namer Syndrome yadda) is a serialized work.

Just how long should the tonal shift last to count? After they are removed from the story? That might be necessary to figure out if Knight is worth keeping.

Knights is different than Viler New Villain in theoretically they could be more sympathetic and less heinous but still change the tone for the darker.

"Tone Shift Character" sounds clearer, but I'm not sure if it conveys the lastingness requirement.

But lets check Cerebus Syndrome to see if it offers any reason Knight would be a worthy sub-trope. (And how is Cerebus Syndrome supposed to be different than Darker and Edgier? The latter is a immediate jump in tone while the former is gradual?)

I'm about halfway through the wick check and can't see much of a difference myself.

Thinking about it, is it necessary for Knight of Cerebus to be a villain? They may be just any new character who brings "bad news" to a, for example, previously assumed a Slice of Life story.

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 21st 2021 at 11:28:50 AM

I don't have much in the way of ideas, but there's one thing that I noticed... Master N, you're putting any example of an already-dark story as misuse, right?

But in the description, there's this sentence: "Grimdark shows and stories that take place in a Crapsack World are much less susceptible to this kind of influence, but even they have exceptions if this villain shifts the story from Black Comedy to being more serious."

Some of the wick examples in the "already dark and serious" folder are very much comedic (A Series Of Unfortunate Events, Dead Rising, Ace Attorney), so I'm not sure "was already dark" is a valid reason to call them misuse.

Almost done with the wick check, and everything I said still stands. That trope is being misused just as much, and in fact has even less clear guidelines. So a renaming of both might be in order.

Well, for Ace Attorney, for example, Blaise Debeste doesn't cause the permanent tonal shift that the trope implies.

Though honestly, I'm starting to think that the description is itself a contributor to the confusion- it seems to contradict itself and what other pages say it is. It is possible that it was added on by later tropers, and that's why it says something different than what people seem to think it is.

Also, how come this isn't hooked in the Knight of Cerebus main page like tropes usually are when discussed in TRS?

Edited by MasterN on Oct 21st 2021 at 2:16:50 AM

Like I've said, I think both pages have ambiguous definitions and probably need to be reworked completely.

Because nobody put the header there, it's not automatic. I think? Not all TRS threads get hooked. I'm not sure if adding one requires mod's approval.

[[WMG:[[center:[[AC:This trope is [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1634757867053926400 under discussion]] in the Administrivia/TropeRepairShop.]]]]]]

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 21st 2021 at 12:24:45 PM

We should also do one for Cerebus Syndrome since that one is also being discussed.