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Misused: Dueling Works

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Oct 5th 2021 at 6:14:18 AM

Not really - they are keeping subscribers by releasing one awaited release after another awaited release... Remember how Mando S2 was followed by Wandavision which was followed by TFATWS, which was followed by The Bad Batch, which was followed by Loki, which was followed by Monsters At Work, which was followed by What If, which was followed by Star Wars Visions...

Edited by magnumtropus on Oct 5th 2021 at 5:19:58 PM

miraculous We'll show them. We'll show them all. from South Africa
We'll show them. We'll show them all.
Oct 5th 2021 at 6:49:33 AM

Basically ensuring their is always a big hit to grab peoples attentions. It's also worked.

Real power doesn't come to those who were born strongest, or fastest, or smartest. No. It comes to those who will do anything to achieve it.
Orbiting Relationship Status: I've got a total eclipse of the heart
Oct 5th 2021 at 7:55:47 AM

Edited by Orbiting on Oct 5th 2021 at 11:00:10 AM

GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Oct 5th 2021 at 8:26:08 AM

We're talking time period as in, the time in which the works were released, right? Not as a waiting period?

Yes. We're talking about requiring works to have been released relatively close to each other (hence why I mentioned between half a year to a full year as an example), as opposed to how it was previously mentioned that there's a "duel" listed that is between works that were released 17 years apart.

Adept Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Oct 5th 2021 at 8:36:58 AM

What about works that are announced within a similar time period, but due to production issues end up being released farther apart than a year?

GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Oct 5th 2021 at 9:01:32 AM

[up]I'd be willing to accept that as an exception to the release time period requirement.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 5th 2021 at 11:01:56 AM

Oct 5th 2021 at 9:54:57 AM

I also think we should be careful about announcements vs an actual duel. Lots of things get announced at the same time due to the sheer amount of media being made and companies not (always) cooperating or colluding with each other around launching their IPs. Same or overlapping announcement dates, launch dates, air times, etc are necessary for the trope but not sufficient to claim two works are dueling.

In the description for the trope, we should emphasize that a dueling narrative needs to already exist and not just leave it to the discretion of the troper since that's how you get...(hypothetically) Steven Universe vs The Walking Dead because they aired at the same time and one troper was a fan of both and personally felt like there was a duel despite this not being felt by the vast majority of viewers of either.

Edited by amathieu13 on Oct 5th 2021 at 12:56:02 PM

Adept Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Oct 5th 2021 at 11:29:25 PM

[up]By the way, when I said announce, I was thinking more of the release of the first promotional material. If 2 trailers dropped at the same date, it's reasonable to expect that they would both be released at around the same time, and not, say, 3 years apart.

And certainly there must be enough similarities between the two works that they'd cater to the sames/similar group of target audience.

Edited by Adept on Oct 6th 2021 at 1:35:16 AM

Oct 6th 2021 at 1:06:01 AM

[up]That's not necessarily true. Two film trailers can drop on the same day and have different taget audienes depending on the market it's shooting for. For example, a trailer for a romantic comedy set to release on Valentine's Day can be dropped the same day in October/November as one for a supernatural thriller set to release during the post-holiday dump months (January-Feb.) because it's trying to be killed. By the trailers and release dates, you have met the necessary conditions for a dueling work, but unless there was a marketing push to create a dueling narrative, I would not automatically assume either movie would attract the same audience enough for there to be any competition between them specifically.

My point is that target audience overlap is important for a duel to happen and that does not perfectly correlate with release/announcement date proximity.

Edited by amathieu13 on Oct 6th 2021 at 4:11:52 AM

Adept Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Oct 6th 2021 at 5:04:08 AM

[up]No one is arguing that. The time frame of the works' release and similarities between the two works are two separate issues.

It was suggested that you can't include works that's released more than a year apart, even if they have the exact same premise. I asked if we can still count works that are announced at a similar time frame can still count, even if they end up being released at farther times. The discussion assumes that in either case, the works in question ARE similar works. Nowhere was it suggested that we can include two completely unrelated works.

Edited by Adept on Oct 6th 2021 at 7:08:48 PM

Oct 6th 2021 at 8:52:36 AM

[up]Time frame and similarities being 2 separate issues is why I replied in the first place. As far as I was aware, we we're only discussing time frame of release as a stand alone criteria, not works released at different times "with the exact premise." That seems like linking the time frame issue and work similarity issue.

And even then, I think it depends on whether or not a dueling narrative exists already. I do think two works with similar premises announced around the same time, but released years apart for whatever reason are more likely to naturally develop that kind of narrative, but I also don't want to by default say anything with similar premises released around the same time = a dueling work. Might lead to another conflation of Follow the Leader or Recycled Premise with Dueling Works that seemed to be one of the issues with Dueling Works to begin with.

Not saying you're advocating for that and my comment on announcements doesn't outright reject your larger idea about "same announcement day but different release time" being included. I'm saying that we should make it clear in the trope description that similarity of premise and release dates do not alone define a duel.

Oct 6th 2021 at 6:18:41 PM

Found this entry on New Game Plus One Piece. As if the trope wasn't misused enough, we have here a back-and-forth argument that extends far beyond what a Dueling Works entry should be, not to mention the unorthodox formatting:

  • Dueling Works: With Xomniac's Self-Insert Fic This Bites!. It began when Duncan gave Xomniac a Shout-Out, saying that his fic was the best SI he'd ever read. Xomniac initially intended to return the compliment...but the day before he published his next chapter, Duncan published his, thoroughly upstaging what Xomniac had done. Subsequently, Xomniac declared Duncan his rival in his author's notes, and Duncan's reaction was...nonchalant.
    Duncan: And as to our feud, it will most likely take the form of Guy's and Kakashi's, in that you will crow about one-upping me and I won't even care. That being said... ALLEZ, PEASANT!
    • And at first, Duncan seemed to be right; this is from the Author's Notes of Chapter 12, published three days after Xomniac declared him his rival:
    Duncan: That's the Reverse Mountain arc done, and the second half of 'chapter' 11. Some patience and I could have put them together... though I do so love to mess with you all. Besides, were it not for my decision to split this in two, I would not have upstaged my so-called 'eternal rival' (you know who you are ;p).
    • But when Xomniac published This Bites! Chapter 23...
    Duncan: Damn. You. Xomniac. You completely one-upped what I had planned for Arabasta. And it was going to be EPIC! Now i have to come up with something even more obscene and unexpected.

    ... Well done. The youth beat the hip this day.
    • And then Xomniac publishes Chapter 24, upon which Duncan deems Xomniac and his two cowriters definitively Worthy Opponents:
    Duncan: ...
    I feel like Lee Sedol going up against AlphaGo. You three make moves I could never have predicted.

    Excellent work, and a Happy Easter to you.
    • But does that mean Xomniac is winning their rivalry? Oh, no. Here's his reaction after Duncan publishes Chapter 13:
    Xomniac: Only a true artiste and master can equal the content of 4 separate chapters written by 3 collaborating writers with a single one.

    Well done, sir. Well done indeed.
    • Then we have further proof that Duncan sees him as a Worthy Opponent. More than he sees himself, even:
    Duncan: I did NOT beat out the last four chapters of this with one of my filler chapters. I'm good, but not THAT good.
    • Much later, after the Cross-Brain's T-T-T-Triple Tap, Duncan left this review on Chapter 31:
    Duncan: ... A freaking novella, so funny and Well-written I didnt even make it all the way through, followed up within 24 hours... if you think I'm the better side in our 3-on-1 war, you're either clinically insane or I'm physically incapable of appreciating my reported "genius" . Probably a little of both. I just know my Whiskey Peak will seem like the Spin Doctors closing for Maroon 5 compared to your Skypeia.
    • Xomniac's response? Publishing Chapter 34, at the time by far the longest chapter in the story, and putting a massive spin on the Davy Back Fight. The last words of the author's note:
    Xomniac: Oh, and DuncanIdaho2014, you want me to take pride in my own work? Alright, here's some pride: top this.
    • Duncan's response:
    Duncan: I will be hard pressed to top this... thank you for the challenge. Amd don't think I missed you copying my Narrative Profanity Filter.

    Well, I'll be hard pressed to top the Back Fight. My fight with Aokiji will go down in fanfiction HISTORY, that I guarantee you. Though by the time I get there you'll probably be at Zou. Curse my aversion to sustained mental effort.
    • Of course, the Cross-Brain still considers him their rival, as evidenced clearly by the Author's Note at the top of Chapter 35, which they published shortly after Duncan posted Chapter 14:
    Cross-Brain: Ah, yes. And, to our rival, DuncanIdaho2014, author of New Game Plus, currently the third most popular One Piece fic in the fandom, we have a few words to say. Ahem…
    The Patient One: You put out a work that thoroughly upstages at least one aspect of our own ideas, and then that blasted cliffhanger…
    • Ultimately, however, the rivalry seems to have come to a conclusion. 17 days after the Cross-Brain published Chapter 39, Duncan said this in regards to This Bites!:
    Duncan:... I don't care what you say.

    I don't care what you three or anyone else says.

    I will ALWAYS consider THIS to be the best One Piece fanfiction ever written.

    Well done. Just... well done.
    • ...Or so it seemed, until the Cross-Brain called it back on with their publishing of Chapter 46, shortly after New Game Plus reached a most impressive milestone:
    Cross-Brain: To DuncanIdaho2014:

    Claim that we’re the greatest if you wish. But the fact remains that you have cemented your position as our rival by claiming the mantle of the most popular One Piece fan fiction. We offer you our heartfelt congratulations, and eagerly look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

    …And just as much? We look forward to when we finally clash to see who is most worthy of the title. May the best fan (or fans) win.
    • But then came the hiatus, and Duncan truly brought the rivalry to a close, wishing the Cross-Brain the best of luck.

A similar entry exists on the other work's trivia page.

Edited by Shadow8411 on Oct 6th 2021 at 6:22:14 AM

Synchronicity cut to the feeling! Relationship Status: I've got a total eclipse of the heart
cut to the feeling!
Oct 6th 2021 at 7:16:39 PM

Maybe the best way to do this would be to require that an entry have different companies (disqualifying cases like Boba Fett vs Hawkeye (2021); or stuff like, say, Raya and the Last Dragon vs Encanto even if they're both 2021 animated fantasy films starring brown girls who have to restore the magic, because Disney wants them all to do well), and meet a minimum of 2 or so (TBD) from a list of potential factors. So if they have totally different creators and similar...

  • Platforms (so a movie can't "duel" a TV show, but two big PC games can)
  • Subject matter
  • Initial release dates (I really think we have to come up with a timeframe here)
  • Actual release dates
  • Timeslots (for stuff like serialized shows), eg. there was at least one point The Voice and American Idol aired at the same time
  • (maybe) a "duel" narrative pushed by advertising/third party outlets,
  • (feel free to suggest more)
...they can qualify, but each point has to be well-explained.

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 6th 2021 at 9:27:44 AM

Adept Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Oct 6th 2021 at 7:28:06 PM

[up][up][up]I suppose the similar time frame is so that both works are still fresh in the (re)viewers' minds when they make the comparison/contrast. For example, if some studio were to release an animated movie about ants this year, it's unlikely that people are going to consider it a dueling work to A Bug's Life and Antz.

And 1 year is not enough time for a creator to produce and release a similar work to follow in the footsteps of a popular IP, so the fact that they are released at close time frames actually prove that the similar ideas were developed independently instead of having one being a copycat attempt to the other.

[up][up]That seems to be chronicling a duel/rivalry between the authors and not the work itself, as nothing is said about how readers react to either story. It's also veering too close to drama importation, TBH, and the whole thing should be cut.

[up]I like those criteria, although for the time slot point, I remember there are cases where the creators deliberately set the time slot away from their "rival" to maximize their revenue so to speak (i.e. to make sure that the viewers will watch both instead of choosing one over the other). Masterchef Australia and My Kitchen Rules does that.

Edited by Adept on Oct 7th 2021 at 6:56:38 PM

Oct 6th 2021 at 8:38:34 PM

[up] Thanks for the tip. The Dueling Works entry has been cut on one page, and the other page has been sent to the cutlist, since that entry was the only thing on it.

Oct 6th 2021 at 9:28:16 PM

[up][up]By Follow the Leader, I mean that both releases are following someone else's lead. As in, after Twilight came out, supernatural teen romances were EVERYWHERE: tv, film, books, etc., all trying to ride the gravy train Twilight clearly created. Does that mean all of the works were in duels with one another because they came out within the same 1-3 year span and had similar premises? I wouldn't say so without an established narrative indicating as such

[up][up][up]I agree with those criteria and the point about release date time frame. I stand by the 1 year, but would also be ok with up to 2 years (with good reason justifying how the duel was fought or covered in media)

Edited by amathieu13 on Oct 7th 2021 at 11:25:58 AM

GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Oct 7th 2021 at 12:18:49 AM

Regarding TV shows having either the same time slot or airing close to each other without airing simultaneously, that also sounds like it could be a good way to gauge whether works are dueling.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 7th 2021 at 2:20:40 PM

alnair20aug93 🧡 orange 🧡 from Furrypines Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🧡 orange 🧡
Oct 7th 2021 at 3:31:18 AM

By the way, since the crowner picks have been picked, we have this existing thread to be dealt with. I propose we convert the thread into a proper cleanup thread since it's already in the Short-Term projects.

alnair20aug93 🧡 orange 🧡 from Furrypines Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🧡 orange 🧡
Nov 5th 2021 at 11:01:16 AM

how's the progress? have we reached a decision?

GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Nov 8th 2021 at 2:50:23 PM

[up]We've reached a decision, and now the current task is making the changes that were decided on.

Nov 16th 2021 at 10:16:21 PM

I made some mock-up regex replacements at Sandbox.Dueling Works, which can be used to change examples to a new format.

Nov 17th 2021 at 7:08:10 AM

We still need to settle on criteria to determine a duel. So far we have discussed the following ideas:

  • airing during the same time slot (two shows both airing on Thursdays 7pm)
  • airing during the same time period (two shows not necessarily sharing the same time slot, but on air during the same time frame)
  • being released within a year (maybe 2 years) of each other
  • media narrative that labels two works to be in a duel
  • Having the same premise
    • This can be in conjunction with any of the above to make them stronger or a stand alone criteria

Are there any other criteria we want to add? Do we want to change or remove any of the criteria?

I personally have argued having the same premise alone is not enough to qualify as a duel

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 17th 2021 at 10:08:34 AM

Tabs from now on
Nov 17th 2021 at 10:54:09 AM

The first three bullets look like a "must fulfill one of the three", while the last two are being proposed as "must fulfill" both, right?

Nov 17th 2021 at 11:49:47 AM

[up]I don't think there has been any consensus on which ones are necessary and which ones are just sufficient criteria. The first two came from a discussion on serialized media like TV shows, manga and comic series, podcasts, webseries, etc. The third bullet came from a discussion on things that are released at one time like films, albums / records, concerts / other one time events, etc.

The bottom two were suggestions on how to limit the scope to avoid some of the more egregious shoehorns that were listed as examples.

Edited by amathieu13 on Nov 17th 2021 at 2:54:02 PM

24th Sep '21 12:14:07 PM

Crown Description:

Dueling Works has a broken table format and is prone to misuse. What should be done?

Total posts: 131

How well does it match the trope?

Example of:


Media sources: