Random idea, probably not viable but at this point it's worth pitching anyway.
What if...and hear me out.... The trope was broadened?
Every issue with this trope can be linked back to the five tropes attached to it. Every shoehorn and bad indentation, every gender debate and unfitting role, it's all caused at least in part by the very specific nature of how every example is supposed to be structured.
But "a team of two foils and a mediator" sounds tropeworthy. Tbh, there's probably a lot of examples of that broader definition.
So why not ditch the exact five-trope structure and reinvent it from the ground up as a trope about any 5-member team that fits the broader core?
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallI don't think so. Like I said, most shoehorns involve people forcing characters into specific roles. No specific roles, no shoehorns of that nature.
I mean, yeah, if it's a bad idea I accept it. But I figured it didn't hurt to consider.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallIt's an interesting idea. There might still be some attempts at shoehorning, but I think it won't be as extreme as it is now. My one big concern is does this mean we'll end up creating a Seven Man Band trope for three pairs of foils and a mediator or a Nine Man Band trope for four pairs of foils and a mediator?
This is not really that related, but when I adopted Masculine, Feminine, Androgyne Trio I made sure to specify that other odd-numbered groups could still count as long as one androgynous person balanced the gender ratio.
Do we even have examples of that "two foils and a mediator" five-man group though? The almost-valid examples discussed in this thread don't seem to fit that definition either.
In the Detective School Q example, The Leader and The Lancer are foils, as is The Big Guy and The Smart Guy, but The Chick doesn't really act as a mediator as far as I'm concerned.
In The Avengers (2012) only Capt and Tony are foils, Bruce and Thor barely interact and the closest thing we have to a mediator is Coulson and Fury rather than Natasha.
Fair points all around.
I just wanted to pitch. I have no attachment to the idea.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallThw Five Man Band actually fits Super Sentai a lot more than Power Rangers. Except for the fact that Sentai sometimes gives one person both The Big Guy and The Smart Guy and make the fifth a Kid Appeal or Comic Relief. I think there are a lot of all female examples that get ignored due to the gender restrictions. Is there a way to make it so that The Lancer and Leader tropes etc need to have added specific "rules when used in a 5MB ? I also agree that Voltron should be the main examples not Star Wars since Voltron actually fits the tropw like a glove.
Edited by MikeMikeMikeMikeMike on Sep 1st 2021 at 12:03:51 PM
I do like what this is getting at as far as how certain tropes are used as part of a FMB as opposed to on their own. I think having specific rules for how the member tropes should differ may end up missing the forest for the trees (which is much of the problem the trope has now), but I do think it's worth noting how the members fit together in a dynamic rather than "these five tropes exist in the same work".
With regards to the "main example" suggestion, I... don't see the point in having one in the first place. The only reason Star Wars is the "main example" is because this trope dates back to when "it's like in that one show" was an acceptable trope description.
It's funny because we're all living in a simulation and free will is a lie.This trope really is emblematic of the ancient chaos that was TVT's early years, isn't it? Something like this would never fly nowadays, and Fast Eddie Fiat had a lot more weight back when he, well... had the power to enact said fiat in the first place.
Since we're starting to really pick apart this trope, let's pick apart the roles too. Because those, as I've said, are the cause of a LOT of the issues we have here.
The Leader and The Lancer are the most straight-forward. Their roles are easy to identify and define.
Smart Guy and Big Guy aren't as simple, but still pretty basic. They're based on skillsets moreso than personality, which as mentioned before, does confuse things a little. They're also not always as fleshed out or interesting as the others.
The Chick is the most questionable one, as the possible interpretations vary from "girliest member / Designated Victim" to "the team's mediatory and core". Some versions of examples feature male characters in the role, and some want to ditch it for The Heart.
No matter what, these roles bring questions. How are they defined, primarily, in terms of an FMB? The Lancer contrasts The Hero, but what if there's multiple contrasts? What if more than one character is smart or combat-skilled? Etc, etc, etc. It really just boils down to, well...what's shown to be a primary character trait and portrayal, but that gets into interpretation, which explains why there's so many shoehorns and controversy. If someone wants to argue that it's Yoda who is Luke's true Lancer because he's wise and old while Luke is impulsive and young, who are we to say that it's an invalid interpretation if the facts line up? And when all these roles come together as a team, how are we to neatly define the team without relying on the specific archetypes?
I'm seeing how my previous idea was... flawed, to put it lightly. I wanted to work around the role issue but went a little too far in the other direction. I was about to suggest the opposite idea— splitting off the dynamics into their own tropes- but that seems flawed too, if only because the foil dynamics are already ingrained into the character archetypes. The problem is that the roles are simultaneously their own tropes, and components of the FMB, and those concepts aren't always compatible.
Honestly...yeah. The most viable solution here... the one with the least possible amount of confusion and mess... is to just dissolve the trope entirely and split off the character tropes as separate examples.
I also previously suggested a JFF version for joke matchups, which is just something to get our sillies out and let people experiment with roles without actually having to follow the tropes exactly, but I understand if it's not worth the hassle.
Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 31st 2021 at 1:12:57 PM
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallBear in mind that Five-Man Band as originally written included The Hero, not The Leader (and this is why The Hero still mandatorily has a Star Wars pic, even though The Leader does not; the requirement has always been that the five pages of Five-Man Band show the main cast of Star Wars).
I mean yeah, this has become messy over the years. It looks like The Big Guy and The Smart Guy aren't actually tropes either, but more of an index of "strong martial character" (resp. "smart character") tropes. The only reason those pages exist is because they're part of the Five-Man Band. And as noted above, The Chick isn't really a trope either, but a superset of either The Heart or The Smurfette Principle.
I'm definitely on-board with looking at The Big Guy, The Smart Guy, and The Chick once we're done with this. I don't think I've seen much of those outside of Five-Man Band examples.
Re-linking the potential crowner options
in case anyone has anything to say about them.
I don't see the point in making it definition-only? If it is a trope, then it deserves examples. If it is not a trope, then it should be merged or cut.
Also, I get the impression option 2 ("allow examples") basically means leaving the page as it is. I mean, "do nothing" is a valid outcome of the crowner, but then let's be clear about it.
The fact that there's hardly any valid examples, especially since The Chick is so vaguely defined that it's hard to pinpoint of a group qualifies as an example, even if the other four seem to fit
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The main arguments for keeping it are its age and popularity. The page is very popular, and had thousands of examples before it got a lengthy cleanup thread
. Many people really really want their favorite show to have a Five-Man Band if you squint enough.
...that doesn't make it a trope, of course.
Edited by Spark9 on Sep 1st 2021 at 7:29:42 AM
The only reason I could see to make this page definition only would be if this term has caught on outside of this wiki, like Stuffed in the Fridge.
Cleaned it up to make it clearer. If anyone can think of any other courses of action, now's the time to bring them up.
TRS Wick CleaningMy issue with definition-only is that this isn't a pre-existing term we need to define. It's a trope we very clearly made up. Not in the pareidolia way (this time at least) but in the "a pattern was identified but we're probably the only people who use this specific terminology to define it" kinda way.
Still...I'd be nice to direct those inbounds somewhere...
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallWhen we got rid of Six Student Clique, didn't we just redirect it to Cast Calculus?
Not sure if this is relevant, but these are the inbounds:
Crown Description:
What would be the best way to fix the page?

Well Cast Calculus is for analyzing trends in the media. I was thinking this page would be about suggesting ways a writer could balance the cast. Five-Man Band seems like a ensemble that works on paper, but we haven't been able to find that many examples of it actually occuring.