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themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#1: Aug 8th 2021 at 12:16:46 PM

Over on the Nightmare Fuel cleanup thread, it came up that the cleanup threads and their communities in general tend to have issues with things like snarky and insulting language, instant cutting of examples without analysis, sometimes entire example lists being posted with no explanation as to what problems they have, and other community-related problems.

This thread (approved here) will be a place to discuss these problems and more, and figure out what we could do to lessen or remove them.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#2: Aug 8th 2021 at 12:51:53 PM

I think we should ban all expressions of emotion (or at least, relatively strong ones) related to content from wiki-related threads. Basically what Word Cruft suggests but in posts as well, so no things like "wow", "yikes", "ew", or "oh my god". That way, I believe people will think about things more rationally and don't just go with their first reaction. Not saying people can't say things like "thank you" or "good" which can be related to work done, just the particularly emotive stuff.

Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 8th 2021 at 10:01:36 AM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3: Aug 8th 2021 at 1:09:05 PM

Easier said than done.

The problem I think is that project threads tend to be made of the sort of people who are more passionate about wiki issues and thus take misuse and stuff more seriously. Combine that with the relative obscurity of these threads, and you have a situation where a small community of people are doing a lot of work and need catharsis once in a while. Quite frankly, cleanup work is exhausting in more ways than one. Banning any emotion from those threads will likely only result in faster burnout. People need outlets for their frustration as long as it's expressed constructively.

There's nothing inherently wrong with poking fun at bad examples or using hyperbole. The issue lies in people doing it at the expense of the rest of the wiki, and in such a way that it impedes on cleanup.

The other extreme (posting examples with no added commentary) is just as bad because it either grinds things to a halt or results in frustration for everyone involved, especially if the post isn't responded to. I personally gloss over every text-wall example that doesn't include any vetting from the poster, because I don't have time to read through a wall of examples if they themselves won't either.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 8th 2021 at 4:17:05 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#4: Aug 8th 2021 at 1:18:30 PM

[up][down]

Banning emotional answers will solve nothing,just saying

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#5: Aug 8th 2021 at 2:12:42 PM

Yeah, that's just gonna lead to people hollering any post that isn't 100% formal. I think all we need to do is keep an eye on each other. I'm not opposed to snark, but the priority should be fixing the example.

I do sometimes feel weird when people bash the works they're cleaning in project threads though. Mostly when it comes to Youtubers. *nudges at my signature*

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 8th 2021 at 5:12:58 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#6: Aug 8th 2021 at 2:17:53 PM

So what can we do, if anything, to discourage people from just posting examples with no context or explanation as to why they would be wrong?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#7: Aug 8th 2021 at 2:23:56 PM

Explicitly point out that we need more context on the problem? I end up ignoring them because I have no idea how to help, but that doesn't seem to discourage people from doing that. When I have a big example and can't provide a lot of commentary, I at least lead off like a question like "Is this too negative?" or something that makes my issue clear, not just "Here's an example."

(I know some tropers who almost exclusively bring examples without commentary to cleanup threads, and I've never known how to express to them that it will not get attention without some sort of priming.)

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 8th 2021 at 5:24:11 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#8: Aug 8th 2021 at 2:30:56 PM

[up] I keep wondering if we need specific rules for these threads, but I doubt that will work and I worry they will be hard to enforce, the mods won't be on board with them, etc.

I also know specific tropers who rarely provide context to the examples they present. I wish there was something we could do.

I know "Don't be a dick" is rule number one, but I wonder if there are more specific ways of enforcing it? I have absolutely no idea.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 8th 2021 at 5:31:15 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#9: Aug 8th 2021 at 2:59:50 PM

I feel like we're all thinking of the same tropers. I never know how to help if I can't point out the bare basics, like "that's a ZCE" or "that's misuse".

As for bashing, I do think it's an unfortunate side effect of the way these threads work. People will naturally get sick of seeing misuse everywhere. Makes you cynical. But that doesn't mean it's a culture that should be encouraged or tolerated.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 8th 2021 at 6:02:13 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#10: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:00:03 PM

Similar to the rule against posting Youtube links without summaries, or to rules against zero-context entries, tell people they need to actually explain what they think is wrong with the entries, instead of just dumping them and asking others to do something about them.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#11: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:07:42 PM

People also have the tendency to bring up problem pages and wait for someone else to fix them. We all do it but there's a difference between asking for help if you don't have time and just throwing a link up.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#12: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:24:41 PM

I don't think it's really unfair to make a rule set in stone, because I can see people complaining that not "enough" explanation was given. I don't think we need to outright ban this stuff, just discourage it.

If somebody is giving an example without enough explanation as to how it fits, tell them that you need more details to help them. Going for "well I guess we need a rule to punish people who do this" feels like an attempt to skirt reasonable communication between tropers. The only reason I never brought this up before is because I didn't know if this was an issue, but now we know it is and we can ask, politely, "I don't know the work very well so I can't help much with that entry. Can you give us some more details on why you think this is misuse?"

Also can we cool down responding to questionable examples with "Nuke it" and "Burn it to the group" as the first response we give? A lot of the time, there's actual discussion to be had and we shouldn't just instinctively cut everything we suspect might be half-bad. Again, we need to communicate.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 8th 2021 at 6:25:38 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#13: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:26:00 PM

What should we do about the "cut everything" mentality? Is there even anything we can do?

I still think the only solution would be, ironically, rules for the cleanup threads. Though I don't think the mods would like that idea very much so I'm not pushing.

EDIT: I see your point which I got [nja]'d by. The problem is we have had at least one instance where we asked someone to provide context, and they just didn't respond.

Some people will just not respond. We have to figure out how to deal with that.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 8th 2021 at 6:27:30 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#14: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:29:13 PM

IDK, we could actually talk about examples and listen to feedback and not respond to "Hey I think this might be questionable" with "Nuke it" with no further explanation?

I know a lot of people resent the Hindsight items, but it's annoying when we don't seek context outside of the wiki for the examples we wanna cut. I think this item in particular is the one time I see people strive to delete a fairly common offsite opinion just because they personally disagree with it... which is what YMMV is explicitly not about. If many people made a connection then they made a connection, even if you personally think it's a reach. YMMV is for documenting those connections.

EDIT: If people don't respond to our repeated requests to provide context, I think we should PM them. It's not reportable but it should be handled.

Edited by mightymewtron on Aug 8th 2021 at 6:29:46 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#15: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:31:46 PM

As for the "nuke it" reaction, I agree that in a lot of cases more discussion is needed. It's not definite; sometimes something is so obviously misuse that the only real reaction is "cut it"... But I do feel that people get a little too overeager at times, likely for the same reason they mass-bomb TLP drafts.

Mew, your point about Hindsight brings up something I've been bothered by for ages now...but I don't have time to elaborate right now.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 8th 2021 at 6:33:44 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#16: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:32:28 PM

[up][up]

If people don't respond to our repeated requests to provide context, I think we should PM them. It's not reportable but it should be handled.

Fair point. Though I do have another question—what happens if they do not respond via PMs?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#17: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:35:12 PM

Go to ATT, I guess. It'd at least show they're being uncooperative. If you work in the project forums then you should be able to communicate with other tropers and listen to issues.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#18: Aug 8th 2021 at 3:37:25 PM

[up] All good points.

What else is there to say?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#19: Aug 8th 2021 at 4:29:23 PM

Okay, so like I said, Mew's post resonated with me but probably not for the intended reason. It brings up a point I've been dying to talk about for a while, and I've mentioned it before but not in any real capacity.

So I've noticed that on YMMV cleanups people tend to take a very... objective approach. What I mean by that is that tropers will take the stance of logic and analysis when it comes to YMMV stuff, and completely ignore the fact that YMMV is about audience opinions. This happens with Hindsight as mentioned, where people will jump to cut something that's actually a very common comparison off-wiki. But it also happens in other cleanups, such as Unintentionally Unsympathetic, Jerks Are Worse Than Villains, and Unfortunate Implications. People will try and "prove" whether or not the example is "correct", which goes against the entire point of YMMV. I've pointed it out before but seeing so many other tropers jump on the bandwagon made me feel discouraged from debating about it every time, because I figured that I'd just be ignored anyway. I also see it all the time on ATT and the like, where YMMV examples are questioned not on the basis of "fans don't think this" but on the basis of "this is wrong / I disagree with this opinion".

I think all of these issues points to an underlying issue with the cleanup thread mentality, which is that they tend to forum "house rules" and the tropers who post most often on certain threads sort of influence how the threads operate. Nightmare Fuel, for example, is one of the better threads because, snarky as it may be, the thread still strives to analyze and fix whatever we can, and we operate on a "if it scared someone, keep" principal. But pop down to the Hindsight thread (the example of the night I guess) and it's a completely different atmosphere. Then you have things like the Real Life cleanup, which just had to be revamped due to kneejerk crowner rules that didn't work with anything else on the site. And since not a lot of people frequent these threads, the handful of tropers who do sort of get stuck in an echo chamber where the same pattern of behavior repeats ad nauseum.

We really need fresh blood in Projects. There's been all this talk about getting more hands in TRS, but TRS is like a thriving city compared to Projects (sans CM and MB). The more people we have working on these threads, the more discussion we'll have to have, and the better things are likely to get. It's easy to get cynical and biased when you work on these cleanup projects every day with no sign of progress, so the more people we have the more we'll get done, and also the more people will be able to just breathe and chill.

I'm very tired so I hope all of this makes sense.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 8th 2021 at 7:30:55 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#20: Aug 8th 2021 at 5:03:39 PM

[up] Oh no I get your point. I've come to the conclusion considering all of this that we don't just need new Projects or TRS contributors, we need new left-side contributors period.

I keep thinking that a lot of the non-forum troperbase hates us, because we remove examples, revamp tropes, etc. that they liked and wanted to stay the way they were. It doesn't make them right, but it might explain why there are so few participants. Some tropers may additionally have no idea these threads exist, and don't participate because they aren't aware.

I don't know if there even is a solution. This is kind of a feedback loop situation where tropers don't participate, examples get removed without them, and then they complain that we "remove too much".

Maybe we need to advertise the threads more?

I agree with your points about YMMV cleanup threads too, though I don't know what we could do about those if we don't put in rules.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 8th 2021 at 8:05:42 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#21: Aug 8th 2021 at 5:25:28 PM

It's a catch-22. People don't like us because we change things they like, but because they dislike us, they refuse to participate and maybe stop us from making those changes.

If advertising was all it took, Trope Report would've fixed this in January.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 8th 2021 at 8:25:59 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#22: Aug 8th 2021 at 5:38:55 PM

[up] Maybe we need to add a banner to tropes with active cleanup threads. Or a link to them on the page. Neither is an idea I like but it's all I can think of right now.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Unicorndance Logic Girl from Thames, N.Z. Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Logic Girl
#23: Aug 8th 2021 at 6:18:51 PM

The thing is, with NF, those things really did scare me, but like I said, I was a humongous scaredy-cat back then, so you can cut it if you want.

I honestly disagree with your "there's nothing wrong with snark" argument, since the snark hurt my feelings, yet I don't want you lot to get burnout either! I feel like this is a "rock and a hard place" type situation.

For every low there is a high.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#24: Aug 8th 2021 at 6:30:19 PM

That's why I specified that there's nothing wrong with snark if used constructively. You can snark at a page's faults without indirectly snarking at the people who wrote it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Unicorndance Logic Girl from Thames, N.Z. Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Logic Girl
#25: Aug 9th 2021 at 12:47:43 AM

But where does one end and the other begin?

For every low there is a high.

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