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Cleanup Thread: Character Specific Pages

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Character-Specific Pages (CSPs) are created when individual characters have so many trope examples that they can't reasonably be included on a shared page.

The Administrivia Character-Specific Pages policy details the rules that apply to these pages. All Character-Specific Pages must also follow the basic How to Create a Character Page policy, as well as the wiki's more general policies about spoilers and examples.


This cleanup thread handles the following tasks:

  • Reviewing and approving new CSP proposals. All new potential CSPs must be reviewed and, if necessary, cleaned up before they're created.
  • Agreeing on page names for new CSPs.
  • Ensuring that wicks are updated when a new CSP is created.
  • Reviewing existing CSPs if there's a concern that they need cleanup, or if it's believed that the character may no longer qualify for a page.
  • Merging existing CSPs into other character pages when necessary.
  • Ensuring that wicks are updated when a CSP is removed/merged.
  • Creating, updating and cutting redirects, as necessary, to reflect these splits and merges.

Crowners are not normally required but, where appropriate, can be used to formalise decisions on any of these points.

If a character no longer qualifies for a CSP, it's often more practical to turn the CSP into a redirect than to cut the page entirely. This keeps the page history visible to users, and also helps to steer offsite 'inbound' traffic (search engine results) to the right place. With that in mind, cut requests for CSPs may be declined and referred to this thread if they don't have a clear consensus.

Comments linking back to this thread can be added to CSPs when needed - e.g. to confirm their creation was approved, to warn tropers that a cleanup is in progress, or to note the date and outcome of a more recent review.


We also have some more general threads for character page help -
  • Character Page Cleanup: for trope misuse, zero-context examples, spoiler tagging issues etc.
  • Are these character tropes?: for queries about whether particular tropes belong on a character page or on the work's page.
  • Character pages for the Marvel Cinematic Universe have a dedicated thread here.
If these issues are spotted for a CSP, they are on-topic here as well — but as they're not the focus of this thread, you might sometimes choose to raise them on one of the others instead.
This is not a policy discussion thread, it's a cleanup thread — any requests for policy changes need to be raised in Wiki Talk.
Mod update 07 Mar 2024, reflecting new CSP policy, updated again 22 Mar 2024 to mention redirects for removed CSPs
    Text of original pinned post 
There are several persistent issues with the quality of Character Specific Pages. Now that there are official requirements for creating new pages, this thread can be hub for cleaning up pages with issues or that don't qualify. The requirements settled on are as follows, and its recommended that a page meet two or more to stand on its own:

  1. Other options must have been tried first, like splitting pages into further groups.
  2. The character's folder is cleaned up beforehand, fixing any Zero-Context Examples and Wall of Text entries and removing any outdated, misused, or non-character tropes.
  3. A character's folder is at least 6,000 words/40,000 characters (with spaces). Here is a byte counter.note 
  4. The current character page bypasses technical limitations and requires a split up.
  5. A single character takes up the majority of a page or is disproportionately bigger than other folders.

Splitting a character into their own page is a major change and needs to be run by the community before it is enacted. Even if you believe a character meets these requirements, they should be run through this thread first. Having other tropers take a look can help spot issues you may not notice or believe to be issues.

Per How to Create a Character Page, character-specific pages should only include tropes that describe the character. These tropes should fall under Characterization Tropes or one of its related indexes, unless they're recurring character traits (distinctive things that the character does repeatedly). If you're unsure what counts as a character trope, you can ask the Are these Character Tropes? thread.

If you have concerns with a general character page, they have their own separate cleanup thread, as do the self-demonstrating character pages.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on May 28th 2024 at 8:53:56 PM

Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#1926: Sep 18th 2022 at 11:44:02 PM

is this passable or would a little more work be advised? Not a big fan of this character, admittedly.

EDIT: resolved, ignore the context of this post's sandbox.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Sep 19th 2022 at 5:33:56 AM

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#1927: Sep 19th 2022 at 2:39:55 PM

[up] Can you slow down? You've made a page for Jack Baker and Lucas Baker already without, as far as I can tell, mentioning anywhere beforehand. Which is highly discouraged. You cut out the E-001 folder without so much as an edit reason or a note pointing to where it moved.

Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#1928: Sep 19th 2022 at 5:27:50 PM

EDIT: okay, I understand. This whole (old) post was resolved in this thread

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Sep 19th 2022 at 11:20:13 AM

Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1929: Sep 20th 2022 at 12:30:10 AM

I would also advise on slowing down. Maybe a helpful reminder that not every character (or group) deserves their own page and we do not create separate pages just because a character hits the arbitrary limit. I'm getting this vibe from you from the way you're wording your posts: "is this passable" sounds a lot like "did I do the minimum required for splitting" and that's not the purpose of those pages. There are several factors that should be taken into account aside from just character limit. For a couple:

  • Likelihood of additional appearances (aka likelihood of collecting more tropes)
  • Amount of content compared to other characters on page/general page byte count.
Another thing, some of these pages have long descriptions. Really long. The Plaga page doesn't even hit the "base minimum" of 40,000 bytes (it's 39,103) but almost 2,000 of that is just the description! Character pages are for listing tropes, not analyzing the character(s) they're the subject of. There are several misused tropes, tropes that are narrative and not characterization, and unnecessary photos as well (human hosts does not need 9 photos)

E: correcting "characters" to "bytes".

Edited by Hello83433 on Sep 20th 2022 at 3:35:19 PM

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#1930: Sep 20th 2022 at 12:36:23 AM

thing about the Plaga page is it was not meant to be character specific, just a group page assembling a whole bunch of characters like the Mario Bros enemies sheets; I actually fully addressed that one in particular during its construction in the other thread for pages. In this thread, I'm mainly working on the individual character pages.

Also, I never knew comprehensive descriptions were seen as a bad thing, if that's not just subjective. There are a lot of individual characters with expansive descriptions, like Eren or Saul Goodman (which I wrote for), so I just followed suit and made sure to put a lot of effort into those than just a one-liner or something brief.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Sep 20th 2022 at 12:45:07 PM

GateStarX The Formatter from The Great White North Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
The Formatter
#1931: Sep 20th 2022 at 1:13:24 AM

Hopefully I’m not interjecting here but I feel like everyone is really against making new pages for anything. If the new page is over 40K and the previous page is still over 40K, as long as the tropes are good should it really matter how many pages are split?

Also I feel like having a long intro isn’t bad as long as it’s informative and doesn’t have too much fluff, like using a bunch of add on words or run on sentences.

Edited by GateStarX on Sep 20th 2022 at 1:16:03 AM

It's gonna be fun on the bun!
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#1932: Sep 20th 2022 at 1:19:45 AM

[up]

That's basically the mindset I have, yeah. If I want to make a character-specific page, I take something notable (narrative/cultural relevance) and place it on the Sandbox then work on it carefully until it's over 42k at least.

Also, that post that other user seemed skeptical about is definitely not for the character (Miranda) currently on my sandbox, who is very notable for individuality. When I said "if it was passable," it was for Alcina Dimitrescu. She is the only character I was skeptical of making a page for since she isn't particularly relevant besides being popular, but she was already over 41k. I barely did much work for her and it met the byte count so it wasn't really mine, just something I thought I would publish since someone else did most of the leg work.

Besides her, I don't think I'm running on wheels/"just pick em" for individual Resident Evil sheets. Every character up at the moment except Alcina is hugely relevant in some capacity for the franchise.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Sep 20th 2022 at 1:23:51 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1933: Sep 20th 2022 at 6:10:11 AM

[up][up] We’re not reluctant to make new pages, we just have to avoid the mindset of creating new pages just for the sake of creating new pages. It’s why the cleanup began in the first place and while you may disagree I still stand by that original mission statement - don’t create things just for the sake of making them, make it make sense. It’s also why we don’t like long intros - the fact that some of these splits are only split-worthy because of giant unnecessary intros is indeed a problem that needs solved, not something just to dismiss.

We’re not Wikipedia and we’re not Fandom. We’re not here for bios, we’re here for tropes, and I’m gonna be honest, I’m gonna go through and see if I can trim them down a bit

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 20th 2022 at 9:21:54 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#1934: Sep 20th 2022 at 6:28:19 AM

I am not sure which mod used 40k as a guideline but it was really just meant to be a rough guideline. I don't think a character should get their own page just because their section reached 40k. If the character section isn't causing an issue on its parent page and/or the page doesn't have the "too long" warning, I personally wouldn't advocate for a split.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 20th 2022 at 10:04:54 AM

Macron's notes
CrimsonShark Punk Rocker from The Internet of Loneliness and Beyond Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#1935: Sep 20th 2022 at 6:56:04 AM

As far as I know, 40K bytes is the bare minimum required, but as Macron said, there are other factors to consider, such as whether the original page is large enough and if the intended CSP has its list of tropes identified and presented well enough (e.g. clear and concise descriptions and no ZCE examples).

I have a sandbox page for Kingdom Hearts Saix for example, who has around 41,699 bytes. He seems big enough, granted his completed self, Isa, is also accounted for, but I also know that there are some trope examples in Saix's page that need to be reworded and better described (e.g. his Ax-Crazy description). On a further note, the Kingdom Hearts: Organization XIII page is also really big, so a split should not be a big deal in that case.

I also remember a page being made for the DCEU's incarnation of Billy Batson. While his page did exceed 40k bytes, he was merged back because DCEU: Shazam was left with barely 20k bytes. Though with Black Adam (2022) seeing a release a month away, Billy might get his CSP back as Adam's profile sheet (as well as maybe the Wizards section and the Rock of Eternity) get expanded upon. In that case, we'll have to wait and see.

WHERE IS KRYPTO, I mean, WHERE IS THE DOG!!!
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#1936: Sep 20th 2022 at 8:12:46 AM

okay, so to clarify a lot here (important).

in regards to character-specific sheets (not pages, again, like the Resident Evil enemies compendium that exists now), for the longest time, I always had the impression they were a sign of prestige for a character that had that many tropes/things to talk about just based on how people are so eager to split them for anime/manga in particular, not just something you split off solely if a page is getting too laggy. The One Piece articles are especially egregious in how a lot of supporting characters tend to get one; Charlotte Katakuri got his own page when the Sweet Commanders could make up an extremely meager page otherwise (it's just roughly four characters).

So, say: if someone really put the effort to trope up their page (i.e, not inflating it inappropriately, which I always check for when making such), they could warrant it regardless of whatever. But since this isn't seemingly the case, I guess I'll just only make such for that case (page lag).

For example, the Umbrella Corporation page is huge right now. William Birkin is already 40k bare minimum and I haven't even gotten to proofreading/editing him. If I manage to bump him to at least 43k based on that page size justification, could he warrant one? He'd be the only character I can think of warranting at this point since my work on all the sheets as a whole is done by now.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Sep 20th 2022 at 8:30:11 AM

IkeaHan Franchouchou Sponsor from Kamurocho, Tokyo Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Franchouchou Sponsor
#1937: Sep 20th 2022 at 9:00:49 AM

Plot importance isn't mutually-exclusive, but we should be prioritizing actual page size for when we make these pages. CSP are welcome so long as they comply with the rules like byte count, page-inflation, etc.

Edited by IkeaHan on Sep 20th 2022 at 9:01:19 AM

Character Specific Page cleanup
Sung-Hwan Since: Apr, 2018
#1938: Sep 20th 2022 at 9:11:16 AM

so you mean as long as I just ask for permission, whatever else comes second to just what verdict people decide?

in that case, is there a set number of people to vote beforehand? There's a regular here, Bullman, who is pretty lax on [tup] if it just meets the necessary quotas (like the Saix sandbox the poster mentioned a few scrolls up) but I noticed a while ago some people got seemingly upset at just making a page based on one approval.

That's about the last I'll say/ask on this matter for now until I eventually have a specific-page to show/ask for.

Edited by Sung-Hwan on Sep 20th 2022 at 9:15:53 AM

Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1939: Sep 20th 2022 at 10:18:46 AM

Just as another tip to sort or clarify what I was saying earlier, there are more concrete guidelines over at Character Specific Pages that I think would help you.

As an example of one of them, "the original page should still have enough to stand on its own", if you look at Characters.Dragon Age Inquisition Companions And Advisors, you'll notice that both Blackwall and Dorian's folders are over the 40K mark. Why are they still there? Because if they were to be moved, the original page would fall to around 18K because Josephine's folder isn't large enough for her to stand on her own. Them being there isn't bloating the page to the point beyond readability either, so its okay for them to not have their own character pages.

Now in the future, Dorian might get his own page. This is due to the possibility of his character appearing in the upcoming Dragon Age: Dreadwolf. If he does appear, its likely he'll gain more tropes and he might be split off then. This would be more reason for Blackwall to remain where he is as well because, again, Josephine's byte count is not enough for her own page (and by that point, the page would only have her folder). If Dorian does not appear in DAD, his page will likely remain where it is, because there's not a high chance of his character gaining more tropes and his byte count would remain stable.

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
GateStarX The Formatter from The Great White North Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
The Formatter
#1940: Sep 20th 2022 at 3:49:53 PM

I feel like as long as everything is up to the standards officially set, then as long as things are logged and has gone through the proper channels there really shouldn’t be a need to wait for permission on every single thing.

Like it was said before, some tropers are pretty lax when it comes to launching new pages but others are incredibly strict. So if you always have to wait for permission then you just have to hope you get someone who is more lax on the subject.

Isn’t this project supposed to clean up pages, not prevent the making of new ones? The rules were put in place to make sure that the pages being made were actually good enough to warrant existing, and prevent a bunch of stub pages.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1941: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:08:24 PM

Cleanups are two-fold - clean up the existing pages and manage the creation of new ones - and the entire point of the wiki in general is that we are working together as a group. The point is teamwork and community, as well as making things easy, accessible, and clean, so yes, this cleanup thread should absolutely be in charge of managing new pages and there should absolutely be at least some communication and teamwork in making new ones. Just from the amount of pages that come through here that we have to cut right off the bat for being too short, we need to manage new ones as much as we can.

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 20th 2022 at 7:10:24 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1942: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:10:19 PM

You said it yourself Gate — this thread exists to make sure the character specific pages are split off properly. Having a guidelines page alone doesn't mean that issue goes away, it's still a good idea to double check and see if the split is a good idea.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
GateStarX The Formatter from The Great White North Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
The Formatter
#1943: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:25:14 PM

Aren’t there sandboxes that work as logs? Shouldn’t that be good enough? If someone is working with the project they should be logging every new created page under the logs with byte counts.

Working with people should be asking for help when you need it or building something together, not micromanaging people and having them go through consensus to do anything.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#1944: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:27:04 PM

The issue isn't logging every little change made, the issue is that if people disagree or think the split was handled prematurely or messily, then it's a big problem to get things back to the way they were. People aren't asking for you to make a note every time you move something... People are asking to know about your intentions beforehand so that they have the chance to speak up if they don't agree.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#1945: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:31:24 PM

You keep saying the word "micromanage" - that's not what's happening here. The only things that need permission are splitting off a page and a mass-move of info. Making a sandbox, beefing up a page, cleanup, cross wicking, general edits, those are all fine and those will always be fine, but when you go to actually split a page or move a character between pages, we just ask for a second opinion. This thread requires the absolute bare minimum of communication, much less "micromanaging".

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 20th 2022 at 7:34:09 AM

GateStarX The Formatter from The Great White North Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
The Formatter
#1946: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:38:39 PM

It’s not hard to revert things. If there’s no issue then no one will bring it up. If there is an issues then someone will bring it up and then the group can chime in. If someone has an idea they want to get help with then that’s great, but I don’t think it should be necessary.

Like it’s been said before, it depends on the people who are currently on at the time. Some people are more lax and don’t see the harm in having new pages if it’s done correctly, while other people don’t like splitting off pages if they don’t have too.

I don’t want to seem like I have a bias against some people though. People interpret things differently and have different viewpoints. This is just how I see it.

I personally feel that if a character is at 40K surrounded by a bunch of character that don’t even break 10K then it’s just easier and more practical to split them into there own page. It would seem that most people are going to a page for just one character, so why not split it.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#1947: Sep 20th 2022 at 4:46:46 PM

I don't think we need to keep rehashing this argument because some people don't want to wait for input on their split proposals.

All you have to do is discuss your proposals beforehand. If a couple of people are in favor and everything has been ironed out, go ahead with the split. If you need more consensus, just bring the issue up again.

This isn't complicated. I know there's no guarantee that people will agree with you or that you will get enough input on your idea but that's just how wikis work.

There shouldn't be an urge to rush out and create new specific character subpages if the character sections aren't harming the character pages they are on. This is not a race and we can't just make subpage splits just because we can.

Anyone who decides to make major unilateral splits and moves that affect multiple pages without prior discussion will be reprimanded one way or the other This isn't negotiable.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 20th 2022 at 8:03:09 AM

Macron's notes
Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#1948: Sep 20th 2022 at 5:48:08 PM

See, there's already a lack of communication with the Resident Evil character pages. I went back to check and many of the pages were never even mentioned here before they were published, which has led to the problems present with Resident Evil Monsters Part 2. There are probably problems on the other monsters pages (not byte count, but misuse and narrative tropes) that could have been sorted out if they had been mentioned here for other tropers to look at before they were split off.

I'm at work, so don't really have time to properly dignify this response or future ones at the moment.

(This isn't a thing just against you Sung-Hwan :) , RE is just the most recent case)

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
GateStarX The Formatter from The Great White North Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
The Formatter
#1949: Sep 20th 2022 at 6:51:45 PM

Wiki Talk regarding the situation created here.

It's gonna be fun on the bun!
IkeaHan Franchouchou Sponsor from Kamurocho, Tokyo Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Franchouchou Sponsor
#1950: Sep 20th 2022 at 8:38:15 PM

Idk what just went down, but yeah, maybe we should all try to be a little more communicative from now on.

Character Specific Page cleanup

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