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Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2501: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:25:04 AM

And the Talibans will never use that money to make the Afghan people's lives better. That money is stolen from them either way, better that it not be in the hands of terrorists.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2502: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:31:05 AM

[up]

Yeah, well... you might wanna try selling that idea to the Afghans and see how appreciative they're of that sentiment.

It's easy to say that the US should keep the money when one isn't facing the actual consequences of that decision.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 16th 2022 at 8:32:11 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2503: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:35:27 AM

I know, it absolutely sucks that the Afghan people's lives are hell because of the Taliban, but their lives would be even worse if the Talibans had wealth, and things will not get better for as long as the Talibans are in power.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#2504: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:36:55 AM

Yeah, that's easy preaching when it's not your family's life on the line, you know.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2505: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:41:36 AM

[up][up]

Please tell me what's worse than literally facing starvation?

[down]

Some people have been selling a kidney to feed their families - how's the Taliban regime gonna make that worse if they had money?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 16th 2022 at 8:42:35 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2506: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:41:45 AM

Think what you will, but the Talibans with money will be a worse government than the Talibans without.

[up]Still starving but also the Talibans have the money to commit global terrorism.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 16th 2022 at 2:42:20 PM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2507: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:43:30 AM

Still starving but also the Talibans have the money to commit global terrorism.

You could have led with that, you know? Because then I wouldn't have been under the false impression we were actually talking about the wellbeing of the Afghan people instead of throwing them once again under the bus for our own benefit.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 16th 2022 at 8:43:53 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2508: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:45:49 AM

I think I was pretty clear that I believed the Talibans would not use a cent of that money to feed the Afghan people.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2509: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:48:51 AM

Yes, emphasis on believe there.

Because last I checked, the Taliban don't actually benefit from everyone starving to death.

When people - including human rights activists - from inside the country are telling us "This isn't helping, you're just making it worse", it's time to actually listen for once.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 16th 2022 at 8:50:22 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2510: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:49:46 AM

And the Talibans will never use that money to make the Afghan people's lives better

[Citation needed]

Authoritarian governments have invested in social services before. The Taliban don't want to be overthrown, they have every reason to do something. They may not spend as much of the money as they should but it's very strange to see you so confidently make such an assumption without any evidence to back it up.

This is not the US doing something necessary or justified. It's just America putting its salt at losing the war over the wellbeing of the Afghan people. It's reprehensible.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 16th 2022 at 11:50:21 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2511: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:52:23 AM

The Talibans have not earned any benefit of the doubt about their intentions. Some people keep going "Oh maybe they won't be that bad" but I don't understand why. They claimed that the Taliban would totally be more open to give women more freedom, but then in a totally-not-surprising move, the Taliban ended up being just as repressive as they were before.

Why should it be different here?

If you're going to help the Afghan people, do it in a way that completely sidesteps the Taliban. Everyone will be better off that way.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 16th 2022 at 2:54:00 PM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2512: Sep 16th 2022 at 11:54:49 AM

If you're going to help the Afghan people, do it in a way that completely sidesteps the Taliban. Everyone will be better off that way.

Alright, how're we gonna do that then? Because if it was that easy, we would be already doing it.

Nobody's claiming the Taliban are gonna be "not this bad" - but when actual human rights activists INSIDE THE COUNTRY are telling us "this shit isn't helping", maybe we should actually listen to them instead of making shit worse while sitting in our ivory tower.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 16th 2022 at 8:58:37 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2513: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:04:30 PM

Why should it be different here?

Because it's completely different situations, the Taliban moderating their patriarchy was always a long-shot due to how much it fundamentally goes against their ideology and support-base.

The same is in no way true of spending funds to earn public loyalty. Nothing about that is mutually exclusive with Taliban ideology.

Your logic is just that the Taliban are bad therefore we must assume they would never do anything good, it's completely facile.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#2514: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:06:33 PM

Indeed, it is a facile argument designed to defend the US withholding Afghan money from its rightful owners, the Afghan people.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2515: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:08:51 PM

I just don't see what's the difference between giving money to the Taliban and giving money to, like, Daesh or Al-Qaeda.

If anyone can say what, I'll reconsider my position, but I really don't see what's the difference between these groups except that one controls a country.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 16th 2022 at 3:31:29 PM

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2516: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:39:09 PM

[up] Well that difference is important. Al-Qaeda has no reason to invenest in social services precisely because they do not control a country, but Taliban may have if they dont want to have problems. At very least they have to feed their soldiers and by extension families of these soldiers. You are correct to point out that they will use the money to unsavory purposes, but not just those.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2517: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:43:26 PM

And as I've mentioned multiple times now (and as John Oliver pointed out in his segment on the current state of Afghanistan), Afghan human rights' activists have been telling people to just release the damn money because not doing so is actually making things worse. Because being able to go to school isn't worth much if you're literally starving.

When the people who've actually been risking their lives to push for human rights inside their homeland are telling us we're not helping, it's really time to listen.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 16th 2022 at 9:43:50 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2518: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:43:46 PM

I'm with Resileafs on this one. It's ugly as it is, but giving money to the Taliban isn't gonna make things better.

I think we should rather try and help evacuate more people.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2519: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:45:34 PM

[up] Yes giving money to Taliban is not exactly a choice you want to make, but it may be a necessary one.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2520: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:46:24 PM

[up][up][up]John Oliver is blocked outside of the US.

Edited by Resileafs on Sep 16th 2022 at 3:46:36 PM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2521: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:47:17 PM

[up]

I'm outside the US and it's working fine on my end.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#2522: Sep 16th 2022 at 12:48:54 PM

Well it's blocked in Canada at least.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#2523: Sep 17th 2022 at 7:47:15 PM

https://www.voanews.com/a/afghan-insurgent-leader-calls-for-new-anti-taliban-political-front-/6750867.html

Massoud Jr in Vienna with Aliya Yilmaz, Afghan women's rights activist, as the former spoke to call for support from the anti-Taliban Afghan diaspora to "pressure" the Taliban to negotiate again.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#2524: Sep 18th 2022 at 2:11:54 AM

[up]Um...I really don't think talking with the Taliban is going to solve anything.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#2525: Sep 18th 2022 at 2:25:22 AM

Well the NRF as said by their rep that they will fight if they don’t see anything good coming from the Taliban.


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