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Black Widow spoiler thread

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DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#151: Jul 13th 2021 at 6:32:41 AM

Like maybe throwing herself off a cliff to obtain a soul stone?

This missing the point though.The issue here is that Widow doesnt confort the results of her own actions.Her heroic safice in Endgame doesnt work as atonement becasuse the actions of Thaos had notting to do with her.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#152: Jul 13th 2021 at 6:35:51 AM

I kind of felt like the whole movie we just saw was based on Natasha confronting her past. I mean, are we suggesting that her being willing to kill a child to get to a mass murderer is somehow just as wrong as said mass murderer enslaving thousands of women to be his personal assassin squad?

Natasha has a dark past: "Oooh, she just says she does but she's as heroic as everyone else."

Natasha's dark past is revealed: "She's a horrible person and is too easily forgiven." / "The movie cheaps out on punishing her for her evil act."

Make up your damn minds.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 13th 2021 at 9:36:24 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#153: Jul 13th 2021 at 7:15:07 AM

To be honest, some of the heroes have done worse things. Tony profiting off of war before he became Iron Man comes to mind.

The legend has returned.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#154: Jul 13th 2021 at 7:22:54 AM

Exactly.

Here are the two main problems with Black Widow, one internal and one external:

  • It suffers the common Hollywood mass-market problem of being two or three different movies awkwardly stapled together: a family drama, a spy thriller, and an action flick, and each seems to be made by different studios who didn't speak to each other.
  • It commits the unforgivable sin of adapting Marvel comics canon without the prior approval of its hardcore fans. Ergo the "Taskmaster is disappointing" stuff.

It has a secondary problem in that it presents a morally complex female character who is neither cleanly vilified nor vindicated by the end. That's it. Nobody likes those, apparently. It's too much for our primitive caveman brains.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 13th 2021 at 10:36:03 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#155: Jul 13th 2021 at 8:23:39 AM

Honestly, even after she was freed from mind control, Taskmaster should have still attacked Black Widow.

It would help with the theme of closure. As in, it's not always going to be positive.

It's still was Natasha's fault that her face was blown off.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#156: Jul 13th 2021 at 8:55:26 AM

[up][up] "Too woke" Also is being used as a complaint.

Just Makima.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#157: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:08:04 AM

[up][up] We don't get much time for that resolution, but the impression I took is that she hated Dreykov so much even as a child that she would have considered it a Mercy Kill.

[up] Those people can fuck off, preferably with a rusty iron drill bit.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 13th 2021 at 12:08:30 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#158: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:08:57 AM

To be honest, some of the heroes have done worse things. Tony profiting off of war before he became Iron Man comes to mind.

Tony is a billionaire, so he's inherently awful tongue

Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Deadly Vu!
#159: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:24:08 AM

[up][up] Or alternatively, while being blown up by Natasha sucked, being turned into an unthinking killing machine by her father was a Fate Worse than Death.

Like creepy stories? Check out my book!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#160: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:25:47 AM

One wonders why Dreykov didn't make multiple Taskmasterses once it was a proven concept. It's not like he had scruples against mutilating people to make assassins

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#161: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:44:22 AM

Since when do villains in the MCU ever make sensible decisions? [lol]

If I had to make a more nuanced guess, I'd say it's because he views Taskmaster as a side project. His main thing is training Black Widows to infiltrate society and give him ultimate power; it's a little tricky to do that when you're an emotionless hunk of flesh inside a suit of power armor.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 13th 2021 at 12:45:58 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#162: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:47:40 AM

Fair enough.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#163: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:53:18 AM

Dreykov's main deal is that he's amassing power for his own personal greed, so it does make sense that Taskmaster is more of an enforcer and the Widows around the world are his real focus.

And Widow makes a good point, all that power is pretty much meaningless since he spent too long in the shadows.

Granted, he was powerful and rich enough to afford the sky fortress.

Which made the second viewing funny because like there's a lot of focus put into how Natasha and Yelena don't know where the Red Room is, and have to get help then it turns out it's a giant sky fortress.

Guess Hydra helped cover it up?

@Fighteer. Calling people who have problems with how the movie dealt with Black Widow blowing up a child as having primitive caveman brains? Seriously?

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 13th 2021 at 12:56:02 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#164: Jul 13th 2021 at 9:59:46 AM

[up] Yes, I am calling them out. Implied murder of who knows how many children at the hands of his weapons didn't stop Tony Stark from being lauded as a hero. I'm saying that people take a black-and-white viewpoint of morality and appear unable to intellectually handle the idea of a character being grey yet still on the heroic side.

I'm asking why we draw the lines in these particular places. What makes the life of a child taboo but hundreds of implied assassination victims and/or war crime victims completely cool?

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 13th 2021 at 1:00:31 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#165: Jul 13th 2021 at 10:03:59 AM

Hello? Did I actually say I support Stark? I prefer Captain America for not being a war profiteer and actually taking steps against things like drones and spyware.

EDITH is another war crime and horrific privacy invasion and I've never been fond of connecting Spidey with Stark in the MCU for the latter's morally questionable and various war crimes in addition to his amoral use of spyware to track Peter.

And I am not saying Natasha is irredeemably evil for for blowing up Antonia in an attempt to assassinate Dreykov, as I said in a previous post I actually understand the logic behind the decision even if it's a horrible one. I have said that Natasha being on the Heroes side while willing to commit assassination and other morally dubious acts in service of good is one of her defining traits.

What I am saying is for a character who regrets the blood on her ledger, this movie should have handled the Taskmaster plot point with more focus and less glossing over. There's no need for condescending strawman arguments.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 13th 2021 at 1:08:54 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#166: Jul 13th 2021 at 10:47:18 AM

I feel like you're saying that she got off too easily for that crime. With all the crap she went through in this film, I don't see how that follows at all.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#167: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:00:31 AM

I don't think that's what they're saying. I think they're saying the story should have done more with Antonia and her history with Natasha.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#168: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:02:01 AM

[up] Yes.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#169: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:03:02 AM

We’re not fucking talking about Tony, we’re talking about Nat and here Nat doesn’t seem to show any actual guilt over killing a child until it actually becomes a problem.

[up][up] Yeah it really should have.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 13th 2021 at 11:05:42 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#170: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:04:07 AM

[up] Exactly, I have no idea why Tony's actions have anything to do with Black Widow's actions in this movie.

Tony isn't relevant in this movie at all.

No one is saying Tony is a hero compared to Natasha in this forum or comparing their actions.

Hell, half the fandom lauds Tony as a redeemed arms dealer, the other sees him as a war criminal who got off easy so it's not exactly a set thing.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 13th 2021 at 2:05:01 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#171: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:05:47 AM

"Not enough guilt?" She's constantly talking about herself as a monster who doesn't deserve love or a family because of the things she's done...

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#172: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:06:36 AM

It was my fault for bringing him up in the first place.

The legend has returned.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#173: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:08:11 AM

She shouldn’t have kept justifying it then.

The whole thing was just weird.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#174: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:10:00 AM

[up][up] Nah it's cool.

Tony is a pretty heated figure in the MCU fandom.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#175: Jul 13th 2021 at 11:10:56 AM

MCU Hawkeye didn’t need any more tarnishing, and this reveal of the Dreykov mission does exactly that by revealing he apparently had no issue with Natasha seemingly killing a child to get into SHIELD. We know he knew because he told Loki in The Avengers.


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