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Black Widow spoiler thread

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#126: Jul 12th 2021 at 10:37:14 AM

Problem is i don't see Antonia staying in the game after this, being an assassin was something forced on her.

A character they introduced with highly unique gear, abilities and circumstances that she not only gets to keep after the end of the movie, but whom they conspicuously allowed to live while literally every other antagonist in the film got blown up? And a popular character to boot that whom people are already wishing that had gotten more out of?

She'll be back.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 12th 2021 at 10:38:11 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#127: Jul 12th 2021 at 10:40:04 AM

That would undermine this film. If she was going to continue being a mercenary they should had her side with her father by choice.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#128: Jul 12th 2021 at 10:48:41 AM

First zemo and them task, it seen that by making some chararter sympathy at times it remove the why they should be recurrent villian.

Is kind of hilarious given that one perfect recurrent villian, Killmonger got killed.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#129: Jul 12th 2021 at 10:50:05 AM

[up][up] How so? The star of this film is someone who wanted to get away from being an evil spy, and so became a good spy instead - likewise her sister who wanted to stop being an evil spy, and so became a neutral spy - and the film is all about the fact that they got to make that choice.

Taskmaster making the same choices the people who rescued her did don't seem particularly like an undermining to me.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 12th 2021 at 10:51:02 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#130: Jul 12th 2021 at 11:03:53 AM

But it did seem like the other Widows wanted something different and Antonia did leave with them.

By the end I was hoping she and the other widows got a shot at a normal life.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#131: Jul 12th 2021 at 11:07:04 AM

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that the movie's themes require all of them to make that choice. The whole idea of having that choice is that they're free to do whatever they want. They're not in the confines of the Red Room anymore, so they can do anything they want with the skills they have.

It's another comparison this movie makes to the Winter Soldier. Bucky becomes free, and forges his own path. This leads him to Wakanda and brief retirement, but it also leads him out of retirement to use his skills in a way that befits him and not the people who tried to control him.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#132: Jul 12th 2021 at 11:11:50 AM

From an in-universe standpoint, no, I don't see a compelling reason for Antonia to return.

From a writing standpoint? She'll be back. Like Known Unknown said, Taskmaster is way too popular a character - sure, they could introduce another character to take up the mantle, but they already did that with the Mandarin and I'd like to think Feige wouldn't do something so sloppy a second time.

Plus, like I said before, she could be an interesting foil to Bucky. We already have one formerly brainwashed assassin seeking to atone for their actions, Antonia could instead fall deeper into a career of murder and crime, it being all she's known since she was 10 or so.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#133: Jul 12th 2021 at 11:25:42 AM

I'd love to see her reappear in, say, the "trainer of heroes/villains/whoever can pay" role from the comics - we could even have her sparring with Shang Chi in one of his movies.

Or if they do adapt the whole Taskmaster & Deadpool thing, she would make a decent "goodhearted but morally ambiguous associate" character like most of the supporting cast in Deadpool's other two films. Taskmaster is best when True Neutral, imo.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 12th 2021 at 11:30:25 AM

djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#134: Jul 12th 2021 at 12:55:46 PM

@Cortez, you seem to be under impression that Antonia hated being a killer rather than... you know, being brainwashed and mind controlled by her father. She's a rather blank slate, so we can't know for certain that that's true. Plus, as was already said, not like she has any other marketable skills.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#135: Jul 12th 2021 at 2:00:15 PM

I kinda hope they do a video game comic book movie.

They did.

It's called Black Widow. [lol]

Like seriously, the third act was some combination of Metal Gear and a bad FFVII compilation game. lol

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#136: Jul 12th 2021 at 2:02:15 PM

Someone make a “quick time event” edit of the 3rd act with all the appropriate button prompts.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#137: Jul 12th 2021 at 4:30:54 PM

For what it's worth there are times I've seen cinematography that felt analogous to a certain type of gameplay.

Two good examples would be John Wick and Winter Soldier.

John Wick's action scenes reminded me of the smooth gameplay of the newer Deus Ex games like Human Revolution and Mankind Divided. Being stealthy and calculating all my shots in Deus Ex makes me feel like "John Wick, with a taser, and a cyborg".

Similarly, the scene in the latest movie where John Wick defends The Continental feels quite a bit like doing a survival/waves mode in an FPS. There's even a moment where they have to return to a place to grab better equipment.

A couple actions/chase scenes in Winter Soldier also reminded me of Mega Man X of all things. One in particular of Cap taking a helicopter head-on reminds me of a miniboss in X's introductory level.

Leviticus 19:34
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#138: Jul 12th 2021 at 5:09:46 PM

I meant like actually doing a video game film like Scott Pilgrim.

Just Makima.
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#139: Jul 12th 2021 at 5:35:23 PM

you seem to be under impression that Antonia hated being a killer

She stopped fighting after she was freed of her father's brainwashing and left with the other Widows to find a new life.

She did not look or act like someone that enjoyed killing outside of her father's brainwashing.

If she continues it will be because she feels like she might feel she has no other choice, not because she enjoys it.

Edited by Cortez on Jul 12th 2021 at 9:34:59 AM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#140: Jul 12th 2021 at 6:11:20 PM

I'm sure Nat didn't enjoy killing, yet she continued to be an assassin for Fury after defecting. Yelena probably didn't like killing, but even now we see her going on contracts for Valentina.

Just because she didn't want to murder the person who freed her from her imprisonment doesn't mean she's wholly against killing people.

Of course, we don't know. That's because this is harmless speculation, about how we'd like to see a character with lots of potential return.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 12th 2021 at 6:14:12 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#141: Jul 12th 2021 at 7:00:06 PM

Not being against killing doesn't mean she'd want to make it into a career.

She doesn't have to make the same choices as Natasha or Yelena.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#142: Jul 12th 2021 at 7:01:51 PM

I feel like Arcade would work better for a show than a movie. Maybe have someone hire him to deal with Kamala in her show?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143: Jul 12th 2021 at 9:33:18 PM

[up][up] And it be a complete waste of the character if this is it for her. If this really is it for Antonia then they better bring in a replacement Taskmaster to actually live up to being a hardcore fighter.

Okay I saw the movie and it was okay.

About as much as I expected from a Black Widow movie. I always found her to be the most average Avenger so I never really had any high expectations from her. Supporting cast is admitably a bit mixed, Yelena was of course fantastic and while Guardian and Melina were pretty funny, the movie weirdly enough doesn't really acknowledge the latter 2's culpability in the Red Room. Its weird.

Villain-wise I was rather disappointed. Don't give a shit about Drekov or whatever, but Taskmaster and Widows underwhelmed me. I thought the movie was gonna be Nat facing off against the Widows but it only happened twice in the whole movie, short chace at the start and then another all the way at the end of the movie and thats when their threat is neutralized.

And Tasky oh man, how they butchered my boy. Okay sure the Antonia reveal does fit in the themes of the movie but it also means shes not a character, shes basically just an object. Which would be fine I didn't expect Tasky to have a compelling character arc or anything, I expected kickass action scenes and....... She was barely in the movie anyway. Like Winter Soldier had some critiques for having a short screen-time but he made the most of every single moment while here Antonia wasn't given enough. Her fight with Guardian was cut and her final confrontation with Nat was barely a confrontation.

All in all very underwhelming for a character who I was looking forward to for some boss fights. Like the hitmen trio from The Raid 2 only had 2 action scenes each but they all fucking made the most of those scenes for some balls to the walls action.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 12th 2021 at 9:34:44 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144: Jul 12th 2021 at 9:50:08 PM

I was fine with this interpretation of Taskmaster but it does feel like she's only in the movie exactly enough to fit all the required action beats.

She's not as tied into the other half of the movie, the quieter half, even though she fits the themes.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#145: Jul 12th 2021 at 10:03:48 PM

Yeah its weird.

The reveal about who she is only comes in right at the end of the movie and even then barely anything is done with it, even the fact Nat tried to kill her as a child.

It should be huge deal that the little girl she wound up killing and ignored as collateral damage is not only alive but an unstoppable warrior out for her head, but its essentially treated as an afterthought for the most part.

Its like a cheap redux of Steve and Bucky.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 12th 2021 at 10:05:27 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#146: Jul 12th 2021 at 10:44:28 PM

[up] A while back in the older posts here I felt that it would make Taskmaster and Black Widow's dynamic more interesting IF Taskmaster was genuinely out for her head and wanted revenge for getting blown up.

And Black Widow actually has to face consequences for her crime and has to find a way to atone.

Instead she's absolved because she killed Drekov and Taskmaster is thankful for that and any bits about Natasha's culpability is ingnored.

I mean sure Drekov had it coming but that doesn't erase the fact that Black Widow was willing to blow her up to kill him and Antonia had her life ruined by her too but it's all glossed over.

It really is discount Bucky and Steve but it could have been a good foil to that relationship had Taskmaster still been angry at Widow and wanted revenge.

Black Widow nearly cross the MEH when she blew up a child to get revenge and wipe her slate cleaned, this should have been explored more, I always felt as a trained assassin and former villain, the movie should have explored her less savory traits and show how far she's come as a character.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 13th 2021 at 3:13:08 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Deadly Vu!
#147: Jul 13th 2021 at 1:16:51 AM

Re: And Black Widow actually has to face consequences for her crime and has to find a way to atone.

Like maybe throwing herself off a cliff to obtain a soul stone?

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#148: Jul 13th 2021 at 1:31:20 AM

[up][up] Oh no its pretty much a moral event horizon in any other case.

Yelena calls out Nat for murdering a child and her response was "It was justified". Like no visible regret or guilt, she tries to justify the choice and only actually regrets it when it comes back to bite her in the ass.

A bit of a flub there since Nat is supposed to be regretful of the shit shes done.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#149: Jul 13th 2021 at 1:48:27 AM

[up][up] Death is too easy for something like this, that's why I felt it was a good idea to at least have Alexei and Melina live to take care of the Widows at the end of the movie since now they have to help the various victims they were complicit in torturing.

I guess the movie wants us to accept that Widow killing Drekov is enough for Antonia but yeah....

[up] Like this is such a wasted opportunity, Black Widow is pretty much the member of the Avengers willing to get her hands dirty and has done crimes so something like this if handled well would do Black Widow's character much needed development.

But nope, avoid all the complicated morality and just have generically evil man take all the blame even though Widow has blood on her hands too even if the movie bended over backwards to make sure she doesn't.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#150: Jul 13th 2021 at 6:01:50 AM

To be fair this isnt surprising, Natasha "red numbers" always feel like informed atribute and she always act as 100% hero with a somewhat harsher look, Marvel never really commit to her being the atoner.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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