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Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#301: Jul 17th 2021 at 4:39:06 PM

I'm saying actually socialist (or communist) because of his comments. As he's being hauled in the helicopter he actually explicitly comments he fought "for the cause" and thought the Party had turned into a horrifying abomination he wanted to reform to better fight for the proletariat. Every now and then he alludes to the fact his motivation is primarily ideological. Just surprised me they even put that tidbit in given how rabidly terrified of socialism US media is (let alone the MCU).

Depends on when he would've been fighting "for the cause". He's not old enough to have fought in the literal Russian Revolution, and I doubt he would've been alive during the Stalin or Khrushchev eras. David Harbour was born in 1975, so I'd assume Alexei would be a bit older (MAYBE born during the early Brezhnev era?). Maybe he was part of the anti-Gorbachev wing of the CPSU, I'unno.

I just remembered the opening of the movie takes place in 1995 when the Soviet Union had already collapsed, so now I'm trying to figure the timeline out. The Red Guardian action figure would've been made when, the 80's? That'd probably be Gorbachev era.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#302: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:11:28 PM

This is overall a pretty random and minor discussion, yeah. When he says "fighting for the cause", Red Guardian means his motivation for acting the Soviet Union's (posthumous) super-soldier is ideological, presumably being some kind of true believer in Marxism-Leninism/Socialism/Communism.

Going by the math I think he likely just grew up in the Brezhnev-Gorbatchev and was a Gorbatchev-esque reformer (going by his statements of "the party" having fallen into disrepair). Either that or he's much older than he looks and his equivalent super-soldier serum slows down his aging (how he obtained the super-soldier serum escaping me).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#303: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:12:40 PM

I'm a history major and a Marxist, so getting into these kind of discussions is kind of my bread and butter tongue

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#304: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:14:06 PM

I enjoy them too! I'm also a socialist (more of a Trostkyte though) and I have a fondness for history. My observation on this being minor and random is moreso that you and I are putting more thought into this than the filmmakers likely did tongue

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
StrixObscuro from Somewhere in Massachusetts Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#307: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:37:55 PM

My thoughts on Taskmaster: I think there is some hope of retroactively making this character Finnesse and establishing that the real Taskmaster worked for the Red Room training their agents but quit after seeing what it really was, with Antonia as his replacement, and make Antonia's character arc to find him. Maybe make him her parental substitute in some fashion. It'd be a classic MCU maneuver (even Loki winked at a more comics-accurate Loki with Old Loki) and it'd give her something to actually do that's not Bucky redux.

Dear God, no. It's bad enough they fucked up Taskmaster, they should not fuck up Finesse, too.

By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#308: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:41:08 PM

When he says "fighting for the cause", Red Guardian means his motivation for acting the Soviet Union's (posthumous) super-soldier is ideological, presumably being some kind of true believer in Marxism-Leninism/Socialism/Communism.

Anyways, going back to a modicum of seriousness for a moment (as serious as adults discussing comic book movies can be, mind), I honestly didn't see it as being an ideological true believer so much as a believer in what he personally thought the Soviet Union meant. It's less out of a devotion to the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism (of which the leadership from 1956 and on had bastardized) and more out of a devotion to nationalism, with the party itself being a kind of "family" to him. He worked for his country all the way past the collapse of the USSR and he seemed to take pride in being viewed as a heroic figure of sorts. So probably less him being a true red, hammer and sickle waving communist and more him being a devoted patriot regardless of ideology. The same would go for plenty of people in the real world whose political careers date to the Soviet era (including, of course, Vladimir Putin). Not communists, never ideologically dedicated to Marxism-Leninism, but dedicated instead to their country and its interests.

Edited by Diana1969 on Jul 17th 2021 at 10:41:39 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#309: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:44:08 PM

Can't say this would be a fuck-up in my book. I think her character as established in this film (or lack thereof) isn't that far from Finnesse in principle (Tyke-Bomb lady wih extraordinary prowess is all she has). She's practically a blank slate as is anyway.

[up] It's pretty vague either way. I got a sense of him being a True Believer because he makes, I think, two comments: one that "the party" was decaying and he wanted to reform it (while he is in the helicopter) and the other that the General lured him in with "ideology" (when he's at the cabin).

Edited by Gaon on Jul 17th 2021 at 5:50:26 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#310: Jul 17th 2021 at 5:55:22 PM

It's pretty vague either way. I got a sense of him being a True Believer because he makes, I think, two comments: one that "the party" was decaying and he wanted to reform it (while he is in the helicopter) and the other that the General lured him in with "ideology" (when he's at the cabin).

With the former, that could likely point to him being a Gorbachev type, so more on the liberal end of the party. With the latter, I remember that line but I think it's kind of vague. Dreykov could've just preyed upon Alexei's views and convinced him to follow his stead. He's already a pretty manipulative and shady guy.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#311: Jul 17th 2021 at 6:57:28 PM

Gorbatchev-type is what I figured, yeah.

Still, maybe he is a true comrade. He even has "KARL" and "MARX" tattooed across his knuckles. And according to this, a Lenin tattoo in his torso.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 17th 2021 at 6:57:53 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#312: Jul 17th 2021 at 7:00:30 PM

I never quite understood Taskmaster's fandom in the same way I don't understand Boba Fett's.

The Taskmaster I know is a guy who trains soldiers for the Red Skull and other psychopaths as well as kidnaps children.

He's an utterly irredeemable monster. Cold and professional with no moral limits.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#313: Jul 17th 2021 at 7:12:17 PM

Still, maybe he is a true comrade. He even has "KARL" and "MARX" tattooed across his knuckles. And according to this, a Lenin tattoo in his torso.

Practice matters more than sloganeering, this was one of the issues Lenin himself had with Kautsky's revisionism. Just because one has a tattoo of Marx or Lenin doesn't mean they actually grasp communist theory.

One could make the argument that Alexei moreso views Marx and Lenin as just part of the Soviet patriotism he grew up with in the revisionist era. He worked with the Russian government at least past 1995, long after the Soviet Union's collapse. If he was a dedicated comrade, he would've fought against that, right? But he dedicated himself to the government because he values his patriotism over the workers. It's kind of noticeable when his early attempts at "supporting" Natasha and Yelena were to praise their work as killers and assassins, work that was done in service of the Russian government.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#314: Jul 17th 2021 at 7:15:27 PM

[up][up] Well Doom's a complete and total dipshit and people love him.

They really do have to give Antonia something interesting next appearance. Cause if she spends it all angsting and suffering from PTSD then thats literally just Bucky all over again.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#315: Jul 17th 2021 at 7:43:40 PM

[up][up] I think that's part of what's fuzzy. The Red Room seems (at least from what I understood) to operate as a spy-for-hire organization tied to many governments, including but not limited to Russia. I assumed that The Red Room's tall tale of "ideology" to Aleksei was that they were operating as The Remnant of Soviet ideology deestabilizing governments all over the world "to help the cause" of communism. Kind of a fantastical, Soviet Werwolf concept sold to Aleksei, the Communist The Remnant. I was presuming he got arrested when he started to work out maybe he was just part of a spy guerilla for hire and not a Soviet resistence.

In the credits, for example, you actually see The General photographed alongside multiple world leaders. He's shown photographed with (as far as I can recognize) Condolezza Rice, Bill Clinton, Vladimir Putin, Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud and Boris Yeltsin, which is a pretty vast group.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 17th 2021 at 7:57:29 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
StrixObscuro from Somewhere in Massachusetts Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#316: Jul 17th 2021 at 8:43:33 PM

Can't say this would be a fuck-up in my book. I think her character as established in this film (or lack thereof) isn't that far from Finnesse in principle (Tyke Bomb lady wih extraordinary prowess is all she has). She's practically a blank slate as is anyway.

Except Finesse chose to be what she is. That's the whole point of her, that she chose to become the person she is, for better or worse, rather than being made into it by some shitty Joss Whedon villain with a crappy accent.

Edited by StrixObscuro on Jul 17th 2021 at 11:43:53 AM

By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#317: Jul 17th 2021 at 10:37:32 PM

As I recall, Finesse joined the Academy because she can't remember more than a few months at a time but is a naturally deadly killer. So there's no real life for her but battle. Biology has made her a weapon.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
manhandled Since: Feb, 2012
#318: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:01:56 PM

Sooooo

Someone referred to Dreykov as "whatshisname" earlier in the thread? How dare they underrate/value such an impactful villain!

In all seriousness though, it seems there's more than one person unimpressed by Dreykov, at least how he is depicted/characterized himself, even outside these forums and this site, which was weird to me since I only got my first impression of him solely off his character entry and related entries, and I haven't even watched the film, let alone intend to (so what's written here was basically all I had to go on before I started looking for other accounts' opinions of him as a character). I thought being so evil should make him more notable unless I have a skewed view on what it means to be the "evilest" (the evilest somehow being the least memorable or boring character? Evilness not an indicator of character quality? "Evilness" not rubbing off on the audience reaction? Well I never!). I'm not guilty of some bias based on certain tropes being present or not, are I?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#319: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:20:37 PM

I think someone suggested that the movie's themes are better for the fact that Dreykov is not a memorable bad guy. He's a human trafficker that relies on women agents that he's abused and tortured but is fundamentally a shallow and pathetic man posing as a supervillain.

Essentually like Iron Man 3's Mandarin but even more so because he's such a slimy child abuser.

After all, the guy has his own cloud base and army but he has no ideology or goals.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 17th 2021 at 11:21:42 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
StrixObscuro from Somewhere in Massachusetts Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#320: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:21:19 PM

As I recall, Finesse joined the Academy because she can't remember more than a few months at a time but is a naturally deadly killer. So there's no real life for her but battle. Biology has made her a weapon.

I checked the Marvel Wiki, and it says she joined the Academy to expand her knowledge base, and to evade being banned from the Olympics. The version of her with the memory problems was from a Bad Future.

By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#321: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:24:22 PM

That's when her memory is completely overwritten. Her memory being overwritten by her expanding knowledge was growing worse because she was probably Taskmaster's daughter and that destroyed his humanity.

But yes, good point.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#322: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:26:35 PM

Man Finesse was a good character. Shame she hasn’t appeared since the end of the Avengers Academy comics.

Though Reptile and Hazmat has made recent appearances with the former getting a grand return book and the latter being a supporting member of the current Captain Marvel run.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#323: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:31:10 PM

I never quite understood Taskmaster's fandom in the same way I don't understand Boba Fett's.

Those two aren't all that alike though.

Boba Fett became popular because of how mysterious he was and because his cool suit. Then the EU stories after that. Taskmaster's personality wasn't a mystery, readers knew what he was about since his first appearance.

[up]

She was in Unstoppable Wasp.

Edited by Cortez on Jul 18th 2021 at 3:51:38 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#324: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:41:20 PM

I think Dreykov (whom I keep calling "The General" simply because I cannot recall his name no matter how hard I try) is hamstrung moreso by execution than by conception. In principle, he has a "banality of evil" thing goin on in that he's just this Hate Sink domineering pathetic wreck who abuses women for a living. It can work as a contrast (that he's so mundane despite it all, as I said banality of evil).

In execution, Dreykov suffers from the fact he essentially only gets characterization and significant screentime in the third act of the film while the climax is in full development. He desn't really get any time to establish himself as he is functionally established as a person while his entire scheme is falling apart. The crushing majority of his character is told, rather than shown.

Dreykov just suffers from the odd pacing of the film and its struggle with juggling all of its balls. Film has a hard time with balancing the "deconstructed family unit" bit with Dreykov's end of the plot so he ends up being just cast aside.

I think, keeping up with this film's overall vibe of Winter Soldier-lite, his closest parallel is Alexander Pierce. Like Pierce, he's basically characterized for being rather mundane in appearance and personality in this world of super-spies and like Pierce he's played by a tremendous actor to help elevate the character. Like Pierce he is also a largely Allegorical Character (Pierce standing in for the He Who Fights Monsters thesis of The Winter Soldier and Dreykov being human trafficking made flesh). Pierce just happens to be in a much more well-structured and well-written film that allows him to get more properly established and characterized.

Dreykov has some semi-decent tidbits when he finally gets to speak at length. The bit where he comes undone after Natasha completely emasculates him by not reacing to his punches isn't bad. And Ray Winstone's delivery of the line "The world has only one surplus of a naturally occurring resource, and that resource is girls" is nothing short of bone-chilling, but it's overall too little, too late and it all gets swallowed up in the cacophony that is the third act of the film.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#325: Jul 17th 2021 at 11:44:27 PM

[up][up] Oh thats nice, good for her.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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