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Derivative Works/ Namespace (formerly On Fairytale Franchise Pages)

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A project thread for the new Derivative Works/ namespace. The sandbox for the project is here.

The discussion agreed that adaptations of public domain works are not part of that work's "franchise", and their Franchise/ pages have to be reformatted and moved to the new namespace — DerivativeWorks/.

The current progress is handled at Sandbox.Derivative Works Namespace. Do not move pages to DerivativeWorks/ until the corresponding DerivativeWorks/ page draft is approved and stick to one work at a time.


     Original opening 
I'm referring to pages such as Franchise.Cinderella, Franchise.Snow White, and Franchise.Peter Pan. Rather than being proper franchise pages that actually follow the rules of the namespace, these pages are being used as indices for adaptations, which I think is misuse.

For one thing, these simply aren't franchises. Fairytales are pretty much public domain. Anyone can make a story about these characters. It's not a franchise if it's just unrelated creators making unrelated adaptations. Second, I think these would function much better as normal indices or disambig pages. People who want to find a specific Snow White story would probably not expect to find it by clicking on the franchise button.

But what do you think?

I initially brought this up here (in terms of the Cinderella one), but the discussion died almost immediately after. I figured that instead of keep bumping that thread, I'd make a new one here.

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 14th 2022 at 12:42:47 PM

Malady (X-Troper)
#251: Nov 4th 2022 at 6:10:53 PM

I'd see what we can draw out of these tropes:

    Bryony and Roses tropes 
  • Twice-Told Tale page: Bryony and Roses is a retelling of "Beauty and the Beast" where the Beauty-equivalent is a keen gardener, the evil-fairy-equivalent is a rose dryad who's just as trapped by the curse as the Beast is, and the Beast chooses not to become human again at the end.
  • Not His Sled: The earliest versions of Beauty and the Beast have a subplot in which Beauty is torn between her growing connection with the Beast and an attractive prince who appears in her dreams begging for help; most modern adaptations skip it, because everyone knows the ending and can easily foresee the revelation that the dream prince is the Beast. Bryony and Roses puts it back in, but the attractive young man in the dreams isn't the Beast — it's the novel's equivalent of the witch who cursed him, trying to distract Bryony so she won't break the curse. Bryony never does get to see the Beast's human form because, in another Not His Sled moment, the Beast opts at the end to remain in the form in which she grew to love him.

And the page was only made due to being split from Creator.Ursula Vernon for some reason.

Lastly, here's a store page, which might provide more info?

Edited by Malady on Nov 4th 2022 at 6:16:35 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#252: Nov 5th 2022 at 10:03:15 AM

If we're unsure and can't fill in the blanks ourselves, leaving it off for now is an option. Someone who is familiar can always just add it to the list.

underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#253: Nov 5th 2022 at 11:25:25 PM

[up][up]Thanks for the links. I've added a bit more to the Bryony entry, as well as expanding the description on the work page itself.

Also expanded on a few entries that I was able to get more context for from the work pages. Should we be trimming the partials back to a bare link, or okay with leaving them as-is? If anyone knows any of the specific works and wants to fill in, that's fine too.

Malady (X-Troper)
#254: Nov 6th 2022 at 10:17:28 AM

What issues still remain with "Beauty and the Beast"?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#255: Nov 6th 2022 at 10:52:00 AM

Well, there's the question right above you for a start tongue

I'm OK with leaving them as-is. Not everything can be completely perfect at launch. Anyone who wants to add info can do it later.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#256: Nov 6th 2022 at 11:10:31 AM

I've done add a bit more to the writeups that I could get into. I think we've gotten enough thread feedback to call "Okay with not all writeups being full-detail". I don't think that any of the shorter ones are truly so zero-content as to merit trimming them back to a bare Wiki Word, except perhaps the 2014 French film.

I'd appreciate if someone was willing to do a quick grammar pass, as I can sometimes get too close to stuff I've written. Otherwise, I think that it's ready to go. I'll give it a few hours for feedback, and then make the move.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#257: Nov 6th 2022 at 11:10:35 AM

I'm at the point where I now want to launch this as-is, go through the remaining to-do list, then think what to do with them later, or at least do something.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Malady (X-Troper)
#258: Nov 6th 2022 at 11:20:51 AM

Lost in Imitation calls Beauty and the Beast (2014) a remake of Beauty and the Beast (1946), but I haven't found any other page that reports that.

For 2014, we've got:

  • Stolen Rose: Felony Misdemeanor: Well, it's not like Belle's father could have known the roses were so precious, and there was nothing indicating that they were forbidden — or that there was anybody left to punish him for it. But they're extremely precious to the Beast, who demands his life in exchange for a single stolen rose.
  • Daughter for Father: Gilded Cage: After Belle gives herself to the Beast in exchange for her father's life, she is housed in a luxurious statesroom, is waited on by the castle's servants, wears extravagant outfits, and eats rich food to her heart's content, but is not allowed to leave, and every night at dinner Beast asks for her hand in marriage.

Curse-breaking is covered by anything on the page that mentions "Curse"...

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#259: Nov 6th 2022 at 11:37:13 AM

I mean, those examples are basically just how the original story goes... Or at least I've seen a bazillion adaptations with those exact beats. So it doesn't give us much to work with and again I'm OK with not going all out on adding context to works we don't know anything about.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Malady (X-Troper)
#260: Nov 6th 2022 at 11:46:36 AM

Well, 2014 is just "A French film directed by Christophe Gans."

If we're fine with Panna a netvor's:

literally Beauty and the Beast: Dark Czech adaptation, with plenty of Gothic Horror and angst.

Then we could say "Literally Beauty and the Beast: Beast-with-a-more-magic-past French Adaptation"

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#261: Nov 6th 2022 at 9:38:07 PM

In case it wasn’t clear I agree with Warjay. Err on the side of not spreading misinfo and go with barebones or no description rather than trying to piece together something that might be inaccurate.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#262: Nov 6th 2022 at 9:42:56 PM

The sandbox is launched at DerivativeWorks.Beauty And The Beast, so which work to handle next?

Also these need an index page of some kind.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#263: Nov 6th 2022 at 9:44:51 PM

I think Cinderella would be pretty easy, I'm familiar with a few of the works and a lot of them have descriptions on Cinderella Plot.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#264: Nov 6th 2022 at 9:53:11 PM

Mal and Sync: I did end up expanding Panna a netvor a bit, based on stuff on the work page. I didn't expand Beauty and the Beast (2014), as it seems to be a very bog-standard retelling from the work page, and I couldn't find anything that made it stand out. Certainly wouldn't call it "More magical" than normal with the information I've got here.


Yes, the page is live, and I've cleared the sandbox. I also cleaned the Franchise/ page, and examples from the Literature/ page. I set the page to do indexing, and put in a request over on the namespace configuration thread to have that set as the default for the namespace.


There was some talk about disassembling the Derivative Works tropes index (due to the tropes all fitting more precise indexes elsewhere) and using the mainspace location for these pages.

FernandoLemon Since: Aug, 2015
#265: Nov 7th 2022 at 5:25:27 AM

Remind me to fix the "film franchises" folder in Recap.Disney Animated Canon.

Malady (X-Troper)
#266: Nov 12th 2022 at 1:33:52 PM

Is Dinosaur a Franchise, or is the Ride too divorced from the Western Animation to count?

[down] - Yep. Whoops.

Edited by Malady on Nov 12th 2022 at 2:28:15 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#267: Nov 12th 2022 at 1:38:53 PM

...Wrong thread?

What about Literature.Momotaro next? It's already laid out like one. Something simple to get into the groove?

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
FernandoLemon Since: Aug, 2015
#270: Nov 12th 2022 at 2:27:06 PM

[up] Not really, those are just references to the original story, not adaptations.

Edited by FernandoLemon on Nov 12th 2022 at 7:27:15 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#271: Nov 12th 2022 at 2:28:29 PM

Oh, yes, that'll be easy to move.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Malady (X-Troper)
#272: Nov 12th 2022 at 5:46:58 PM

What's the number needed for Sizable Adaptation count? 5? And/or go like Franchise and [some number] as the minimum if they're all in one medium, but if they spread to at least two media, they should get a Derivative Works page?

Main.Thumbelina I think is needing one? Not sure about Carrie, nor Literature.Daddy Long Legs

Edited by Malady on Nov 12th 2022 at 8:45:05 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#273: Nov 12th 2022 at 10:22:18 PM

Do we need to set a minimum?

Carrie was under copyright till 2002, so most of the works on its page are licensed, not Derivative Works.

Daddy-Long-Legs is similar.

Thumbelina is probably a better target.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#274: Nov 12th 2022 at 10:24:23 PM

I don't see a reason to set a minimum, there just needs to be enough works to make such a page worth it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#275: Nov 28th 2022 at 6:28:59 PM

This business with Fan Works got me thinking: we need a place to index DerivativeWorks/ pages, but Derivative Works is already being used to index tropes and trivia. How about creating DerivativeWorks.Home Page under Sub Wiki to serve as the subpage index?

Wiki Talk: Choosing names
28th Sep '22 7:01:51 AM

Crown Description:

The previous crowner agreed to create a new namespace for subpages of original works that have fallen into the public domain due to misuse from the Multimedia franchise namespace and the Fan Works namespace. The following options had the most support during discussion.

Total posts: 548
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