A project thread for the new Derivative Works/ namespace. The sandbox for the project is here.
The discussion agreed that adaptations of public domain works are not part of that work's "franchise", and their Franchise/ pages have to be reformatted and moved to the new namespace — DerivativeWorks/.
The current progress is handled at Sandbox.Derivative Works Namespace. Do not move pages to DerivativeWorks/ until the corresponding DerivativeWorks/ page draft is approved and stick to one work at a time.
For one thing, these simply aren't franchises. Fairytales are pretty much public domain. Anyone can make a story about these characters. It's not a franchise if it's just unrelated creators making unrelated adaptations. Second, I think these would function much better as normal indices or disambig pages. People who want to find a specific Snow White story would probably not expect to find it by clicking on the franchise button.
But what do you think?
I initially brought this up here
(in terms of the Cinderella one), but the discussion died almost immediately after. I figured that instead of keep bumping that thread, I'd make a new one here.
Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 14th 2022 at 12:42:47 PM
Yeah, I'd leave it as just being connected by the Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index, which we don't have a page on, despite how much we talk about it. I just tried to find one.
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
I'm wondering where we would put such a page. The index isn't really a tropable work in the first place, nor is it something that ends up being portrayed in fiction (so, no Useful Notes). Perhaps fodder for a putative Tropology/ namespace, if we ever figure that out
?
I've done a grammar pass through the sandbox - apparently, I tend to miss words when typing. Thoughts? Does everyone like having the mini-blurbs? (I've not gotten much feedback on that point)
~Tropers/miraculous, you said recently on ATT that "Beauty and the Beast" was one of your favorite fairy tales. Would you be interested in taking a quick swing through the sandbox, and letting us know if we've seriously misrepresented anything?
- Books on Trope is a thing we have. EDIT: Which does mention the Index. Mmm. Whoops?
"not portrayed in fiction"... Indexing wants some words.
Edited by Malady on Oct 26th 2022 at 11:24:36 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576The Beauty and the Beast sandbox seems good to me.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallThe sandbox is at the bottom of Sandbox.Derivative Works Namespace
x3 .......of course there's an exception.
I've even read through the Indexing page before. Just... that page doesn't make clear what the "ATI Management Bureau" is named after, and I wasn't aware of the index the last time I wiki-walked over thataway.
I'm more wondering if there is a better way to refer to the index on work pages. (without wicking to an outside source on each page) Right now, each fairy tale page assumes that the reader already knows what ATI is.
Given that there's not been any pushback, consider this about 18-20 hour notice. I'll Take DerivativeWorks.Beauty And The Beast live sometime tomorrow, and clean the moved information from Franchise/ and Literature/. Last minute thoughts or feedback are still welcome, of course.
I see a couple people have mentioned FanWorks.The Bible, but there was no resolution. I think we could have both that and DerivativeWorks.The Bible, since a lot (but not all) of what's currently listed under Christian Fiction could also go there (I find the inclusion of some works like The Prince of Egypt under "Christian" fiction iffy, since the stories don't include Jesus and aren't from an explicitly Christian perspective).
Yeah, I would say that works like The Prince of Egypt would be more along the lines of "Abrahamic Fiction", since they're adaptions of narratives shared across all the major Abrahamic religions (I know that PoE's production used input from Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologians alike, for instance).
Regarding Beauty and the Beast sandbox, I still think that it should either 1. Be a contextless index, 2. Just say it's a retelling or is inspired by without extra details 3. Fully contextualize the similarities and differences. Currently, the list is not uniform at all, and some entries are only relate by plot points that you'd need to know are from the original.
Also, if the "stage musical by Alan Menken" and Beauty and the Beast (2017) is adapting the Disney version then maybe it's not a derivative work of the original.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
You're probably right about Theatre/. I've been sort of waffling about that, but I'd expect that it sticks pretty close to the core Disney property.
Regarding the lack of uniformity: To an extent, that's due to the actual work pages being a bit short on description themselves - or currently non-existent! I'd expand them if I knew the actual works. (one of the reasons I paged mir) I do think that it's fair for a page about derivatives to assume a familiarity with the core story, though - It's a subpage.
Edited by underCoverSailsman on Oct 27th 2022 at 12:30:09 PM
I've pulled the Theatre/ entry, and the Disney Live Action film. I'm going to hold launching for a bit until we can actually talk out what level of writeup we actually want. I think that it's unrealistic to expect all entries to be full-featured. Amonimous, What would you consider "Fully contextualized" in this case?
I've already said, a small briefing of how the work ties-in to B&B and notable differences. Some works don't share the same name, so context would have to prove the connection.
If it's difficult to provide for each, it just tells me single-sentence or none context should be the norm and people can come up with comparisons post-launch.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupReferencedBy.The Tale Of The Bamboo Cutter has many entries that read to me like "the entire work/episode is a modernized retelling". Worth making a list of it?
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupYeah, maybe it's best to just not require context for every entry.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallThe way I see it. Note that not everything may be accurate, which just proves how hard to contextualize these without inner knowledge at all.
Works based on Beauty and the Beast include:
Anime & Manga
- Beauty and the Beast of Paradise Lost: A Grimmification, mixes elements from other fairytales.
- Belle (2021): Whole-Plot Reference.
- Grimm's Fairy Tale Classics: Has an adaptation episode called "Beauty and the Beast"note .
Literature
- Barking Benjamin: "The Beast" story is a Whole-Plot Reference.
- Beast 2004: Whole-Plot Reference.
- Beast A Tale Of Love And Revenge: A retelling. Mixes elements from Disney version.
- Beastly: Whole-Plot Reference.
- Tales of the Five Hundred Kingdoms: Chapter "Beauty and the Werewolf" is a Whole-Plot Reference. Mixes elements from Little Red Riding Hood.
- Beauty: A Retelling of Beauty and the Beast: A retelling.
- The Bloody Chamber: Stories "The Courtship of Mr. Lyon" and "The Tiger's Bride" are Grimmifications. "Wolf-Alice" story mixes the tale with other fairytales.
- Bryony and Roses: A retelling.
- Cruel Beauty: Whole-Plot Reference. Mixes elements from Classical Mythology.
- The Cursebreaker Series: Whole-Plot Reference.
- The Fire Rose: A retelling.
- Hagenheim: The Merchant's Daughter story is Whole-Plot Reference mixed with Christianity.
- Heart's Blood: A retelling.
- The Last Wish: "A Grain of Truth" story is a Whole-Plot Reference.
- Pulchritude: A Grimmification.
- Rose Daughter: A retelling.
- The Summer And Winter Garden: A retelling.
- The Scarlet Flower: A retelling.
- Time Lord Fairy Tales The "Helena and the Beast" story is Whole-Plot Reference.
- Whatever After: Beauty Queen: A Storybook Episode.
Films — Live Action
- Beauty and the Beast (1946): A retelling.
- Beauty And The Beast 1962: Whole-Plot Reference.
- Beauty and the Beast (2014): An adaptation.
- Blood of Beasts: A Whole-Plot Reference mixed with Norse Mythology.
- Panna a netvor: A Grimmification.
- Rigoletto: A Whole-Plot Reference. Mixes elements from The Phantom of the Opera.
Live-Action TV
- Beauty and the Beast (1987): Whole-Plot Reference.
- Beauty and the Beast (2012) Whole-Plot Reference.
- Faerie Tale Theatre: "Beauty and the Beast" is a Whole-Plot Reference to Beauty and the Beast (1946).
Video Games
- Bronze: A Grimmification.
- Dark Parables: The Queen of Sands: Inspired by the tale. Mixes elements from The Sandman.
- Dark Romance: Heart of the Beast Whole-Plot Reference.
- Living Legends: Uninvited Guests: Whole-Plot Reference. (?)
- Mystery Legends: Beauty and the Beast: A Continuation.
Web Animation
- Beauty and the Beast (Phelous): Fractured Fairy Tale.
- Evil Tales: "Rejection" is Fairy Tale Episode.
Webcomics
- Megan Kearney's Beauty and the Beast: A retelling.
Western Animation
- Beauty And The Beast: An adaptation with own franchise.
- Beauty and the Beast (Golden 1992): A retelling.
- Beauty and the Beast (Golden 1999): A retelling.
- VeggieTales: Episode "Beauty and the Beet" is inspired by the tale.
I don't like the repeated potholing of Whole-Plot Reference and Story Book Episode, nor the repeated "A retelling." If there's nothing else to say about an adaptation, maybe leave it as a bare link?
I'm really not understanding why you want to cut out actual context, though. Such a list is much less useful to the reader if they have to follow every link to even get a basic idea of what to expect.
I don't (And I really wasn't clear on that), I'm providing an example for one of three options mentioned earlier. The point is that either all entries need to explain how they relate to the original in detail (which would require knowing the story of each derivative work), or left at minimum, or left blank.
Edited by Amonimus on Oct 29th 2022 at 6:40:36 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupSo you're advocating for an All or Nothing approach? Or am I getting confused?
I'm advocating for "let's vote on one of the three and if nothing wins it'll just be freeform, because the sandbox mixes all approaches".
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupMy concern with that is: what happens if we end up selecting "Full context" and then find that there isn't enough on the work page to write that context? This isn't really a trope page, so we can't comment entries out for ZCE. Nor can we exclude them, since it's supposed to be a fairly thorough index.
I'm all for strongly encouraging the longer (2-3 sentence avg.) writeups, but in some cases we just can't do that unless someone who knows the media or is willing to look over it comes along. (This is mostly an issue since we are trying to salvage existing listings. Starting from scratch, we could expect that entries be added by someone who knows the work well enough to fill in some details.)
Like I said before, I'm A-OK with just not having specific standards and letting people add context if they want to. I don't know if it's a big deal. If it is, it might be best to just not require or add context at all, or just go for the minimal context needed.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallEdit: For the "Full-context might cause issues" bit.
Well, if they're bluelinks, a.k.a we have pages on it, it should also have enough info on its work page for us to tell how it counts or not?
Otherwise they wouldn't be a valid entry in this index?
Edit: For those Grimmifications, that's a trope, so if they're valid examples, they should have enough context in their trope entries to say that they count, if they do.
Edited by Malady on Nov 4th 2022 at 5:18:25 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
For some, yes. I'd ask you to look at Bryony and Roses, though. (Yes, that is an issue with the work page...) Suggestions on filling in a bit are welcome.
Crown Description:
The previous crowner agreed to create a new namespace for subpages of original works that have fallen into the public domain due to misuse from the Multimedia franchise namespace and the Fan Works namespace. The following options had the most support during discussion.

Yes, a 'sister story' from similar roots isn't a derivative. Making it 'compare' works for me.