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Derivative Works/ Namespace (formerly On Fairytale Franchise Pages)

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A project thread for the new Derivative Works/ namespace. The sandbox for the project is here.

The discussion agreed that adaptations of public domain works are not part of that work's "franchise", and their Franchise/ pages have to be reformatted and moved to the new namespace — DerivativeWorks/.

The current progress is handled at Sandbox.Derivative Works Namespace. Do not move pages to DerivativeWorks/ until the corresponding DerivativeWorks/ page draft is approved and stick to one work at a time.


     Original opening 
I'm referring to pages such as Franchise.Cinderella, Franchise.Snow White, and Franchise.Peter Pan. Rather than being proper franchise pages that actually follow the rules of the namespace, these pages are being used as indices for adaptations, which I think is misuse.

For one thing, these simply aren't franchises. Fairytales are pretty much public domain. Anyone can make a story about these characters. It's not a franchise if it's just unrelated creators making unrelated adaptations. Second, I think these would function much better as normal indices or disambig pages. People who want to find a specific Snow White story would probably not expect to find it by clicking on the franchise button.

But what do you think?

I initially brought this up here (in terms of the Cinderella one), but the discussion died almost immediately after. I figured that instead of keep bumping that thread, I'd make a new one here.

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 14th 2022 at 12:42:47 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#226: Oct 23rd 2022 at 11:52:21 PM

Yes, a 'sister story' from similar roots isn't a derivative. Making it 'compare' works for me.

Malady (X-Troper)
#227: Oct 24th 2022 at 8:53:08 PM

Yeah, I'd leave it as just being connected by the Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index, which we don't have a page on, despite how much we talk about it. I just tried to find one.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#228: Oct 26th 2022 at 10:04:07 AM

[up]I'm wondering where we would put such a page. The index isn't really a tropable work in the first place, nor is it something that ends up being portrayed in fiction (so, no Useful Notes). Perhaps fodder for a putative Tropology/ namespace, if we ever figure that out?


I've done a grammar pass through the sandbox - apparently, I tend to miss words when typing. Thoughts? Does everyone like having the mini-blurbs? (I've not gotten much feedback on that point)


~Tropers/miraculous, you said recently on ATT that "Beauty and the Beast" was one of your favorite fairy tales. Would you be interested in taking a quick swing through the sandbox, and letting us know if we've seriously misrepresented anything?

Malady (X-Troper)
#229: Oct 26th 2022 at 11:23:41 AM

[up] - Books on Trope is a thing we have. EDIT: Which does mention the Index. Mmm. Whoops?

"not portrayed in fiction"... Indexing wants some words.

Edited by Malady on Oct 26th 2022 at 11:24:36 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#230: Oct 26th 2022 at 11:42:06 AM

The Beauty and the Beast sandbox seems good to me.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#232: Oct 26th 2022 at 11:01:04 PM

[up]x3 .......of course there's an exception.evil grin I've even read through the Indexing page before. Just... that page doesn't make clear what the "ATI Management Bureau" is named after, and I wasn't aware of the index the last time I wiki-walked over thataway.

I'm more wondering if there is a better way to refer to the index on work pages. (without wicking to an outside source on each page) Right now, each fairy tale page assumes that the reader already knows what ATI is.


Given that there's not been any pushback, consider this about 18-20 hour notice. I'll Take DerivativeWorks.Beauty And The Beast live sometime tomorrow, and clean the moved information from Franchise/ and Literature/. Last minute thoughts or feedback are still welcome, of course.

Opabinia Since: Feb, 2019 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#233: Oct 27th 2022 at 9:17:27 AM

I see a couple people have mentioned FanWorks.The Bible, but there was no resolution. I think we could have both that and DerivativeWorks.The Bible, since a lot (but not all) of what's currently listed under Christian Fiction could also go there (I find the inclusion of some works like The Prince of Egypt under "Christian" fiction iffy, since the stories don't include Jesus and aren't from an explicitly Christian perspective).

Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Amateur Veteran
#234: Oct 27th 2022 at 9:51:44 AM

Yeah, I would say that works like The Prince of Egypt would be more along the lines of "Abrahamic Fiction", since they're adaptions of narratives shared across all the major Abrahamic religions (I know that PoE's production used input from Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologians alike, for instance).

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#235: Oct 27th 2022 at 10:16:09 AM

Regarding Beauty and the Beast sandbox, I still think that it should either 1. Be a contextless index, 2. Just say it's a retelling or is inspired by without extra details 3. Fully contextualize the similarities and differences. Currently, the list is not uniform at all, and some entries are only relate by plot points that you'd need to know are from the original.

Also, if the "stage musical by Alan Menken" and Beauty and the Beast (2017) is adapting the Disney version then maybe it's not a derivative work of the original.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#236: Oct 27th 2022 at 10:29:47 AM

[up]You're probably right about Theatre/. I've been sort of waffling about that, but I'd expect that it sticks pretty close to the core Disney property.

Regarding the lack of uniformity: To an extent, that's due to the actual work pages being a bit short on description themselves - or currently non-existent! I'd expand them if I knew the actual works. (one of the reasons I paged mir) I do think that it's fair for a page about derivatives to assume a familiarity with the core story, though - It's a subpage.

Edited by underCoverSailsman on Oct 27th 2022 at 12:30:09 PM

underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#237: Oct 27th 2022 at 6:47:24 PM

I've pulled the Theatre/ entry, and the Disney Live Action film. I'm going to hold launching for a bit until we can actually talk out what level of writeup we actually want. I think that it's unrealistic to expect all entries to be full-featured. Amonimous, What would you consider "Fully contextualized" in this case?

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#238: Oct 27th 2022 at 9:25:59 PM

I've already said, a small briefing of how the work ties-in to B&B and notable differences. Some works don't share the same name, so context would have to prove the connection.

If it's difficult to provide for each, it just tells me single-sentence or none context should be the norm and people can come up with comparisons post-launch.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#239: Oct 28th 2022 at 4:21:34 PM

ReferencedBy.The Tale Of The Bamboo Cutter has many entries that read to me like "the entire work/episode is a modernized retelling". Worth making a list of it?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#240: Oct 28th 2022 at 4:22:57 PM

Yeah, maybe it's best to just not require context for every entry.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#241: Oct 29th 2022 at 7:48:43 AM

The way I see it. Note that not everything may be accurate, which just proves how hard to contextualize these without inner knowledge at all.

Works based on Beauty and the Beast include:

Anime & Manga

Literature

Films — Live Action

Live-Action TV

Video Games

Web Animation

Webcomics

Western Animation

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#242: Oct 29th 2022 at 8:34:28 AM

I don't like the repeated potholing of Whole-Plot Reference and Story Book Episode, nor the repeated "A retelling." If there's nothing else to say about an adaptation, maybe leave it as a bare link?

I'm really not understanding why you want to cut out actual context, though. Such a list is much less useful to the reader if they have to follow every link to even get a basic idea of what to expect.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#243: Oct 29th 2022 at 8:40:02 AM

[up]I don't (And I really wasn't clear on that), I'm providing an example for one of three options mentioned earlier. The point is that either all entries need to explain how they relate to the original in detail (which would require knowing the story of each derivative work), or left at minimum, or left blank.

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 29th 2022 at 6:40:36 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#244: Oct 29th 2022 at 8:53:05 AM

So you're advocating for an All or Nothing approach? Or am I getting confused?

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#245: Oct 29th 2022 at 9:01:05 AM

I'm advocating for "let's vote on one of the three and if nothing wins it'll just be freeform, because the sandbox mixes all approaches".

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#246: Oct 30th 2022 at 12:32:42 PM

My concern with that is: what happens if we end up selecting "Full context" and then find that there isn't enough on the work page to write that context? This isn't really a trope page, so we can't comment entries out for ZCE. Nor can we exclude them, since it's supposed to be a fairly thorough index.

I'm all for strongly encouraging the longer (2-3 sentence avg.) writeups, but in some cases we just can't do that unless someone who knows the media or is willing to look over it comes along. (This is mostly an issue since we are trying to salvage existing listings. Starting from scratch, we could expect that entries be added by someone who knows the work well enough to fill in some details.)

underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#247: Nov 4th 2022 at 2:14:36 PM

Bumping, because I feel like Amonimus and I are just going to run in circles here without some additional input...

Edited by underCoverSailsman on Nov 4th 2022 at 4:14:52 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#248: Nov 4th 2022 at 2:16:08 PM

Like I said before, I'm A-OK with just not having specific standards and letting people add context if they want to. I don't know if it's a big deal. If it is, it might be best to just not require or add context at all, or just go for the minimal context needed.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Malady (X-Troper)
#249: Nov 4th 2022 at 2:17:49 PM

Edit: For the "Full-context might cause issues" bit.

Well, if they're bluelinks, a.k.a we have pages on it, it should also have enough info on its work page for us to tell how it counts or not?

Otherwise they wouldn't be a valid entry in this index?

Edit: For those Grimmifications, that's a trope, so if they're valid examples, they should have enough context in their trope entries to say that they count, if they do.

Edited by Malady on Nov 4th 2022 at 5:18:25 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
underCoverSailsman Peeks from Under Rocks from State of Flux Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Peeks from Under Rocks
#250: Nov 4th 2022 at 5:36:20 PM

[up]For some, yes. I'd ask you to look at Bryony and Roses, though. (Yes, that is an issue with the work page...) Suggestions on filling in a bit are welcome.

Wiki Talk: Choosing names
28th Sep '22 7:01:51 AM

Crown Description:

The previous crowner agreed to create a new namespace for subpages of original works that have fallen into the public domain due to misuse from the Multimedia franchise namespace and the Fan Works namespace. The following options had the most support during discussion.

Total posts: 548
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