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Gender terminologies on actresses' Creator pages

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gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#1: Jun 13th 2021 at 3:35:17 PM

Hello, once again. Not too long ago, there was an ATT thread regarding the gender-neutral terms on actresses' Creator pages. As we know, both "actor" and "actress" are acceptable terminologies.

That said, I have a question: which terms should we use for actresses' Creator pages in general, and should we post them in the Administrivia.Creator Page Guidelines if necessary?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2: Jun 13th 2021 at 3:42:58 PM

I think either is fine. We should be descriptive, not prescriptive, and actor/actress is a gendered pair of words that is still in use today. Conversely, we aren't going to try and make "plumberess" a thing, because that's not done in English.

The exception would be someone who transitions in their career like Elliot Page, and in cases like that we should modify.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3: Jun 13th 2021 at 4:29:10 PM

I disagree. "Actor" has become widely accepted as the gender-neutral noun, and we should seek to follow that whenever possible. This doesn't mean we should rush to change all usage everywhere in the wiki, but if you happen to notice the gendered use when editing an article, feel free to change it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#4: Jun 13th 2021 at 8:28:28 PM

This is largely a non-issue and, as I said in the ATT thread, should be decided in a first-come-first-serve basis. Barring some unforeseen circumstance, what is already on the page stays on the page.

Edited by WackyPancake on Jun 13th 2021 at 5:29:13 PM

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#6: Jun 15th 2021 at 11:49:20 AM

I disagree with Fighteer.note  "Actress" is still the term in common usage, or at least high enough usage to not risk an edit war over it. (The Oscars aren't giving out an award for "Best Supporting Female Actor.")

bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#7: Jun 15th 2021 at 12:18:29 PM

This is one of these things where the rule should be "don't be a dick" rather than anything about the word itself.

Mass-changing a specific word, to use the other wiki's term, "disrupts the wiki to illustrate a point". See also this ATT over whether a certain ethnicity is black or Black.

2025: the year it all ends?
Zyffyr from Portland, Oregon Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#8: Jun 15th 2021 at 7:48:21 PM

[up][up]Just for 'fun', I went through all the acting related awards that I could think of. Oscars, Tonys, BAFTA, Emmys, Golden Globes.....

Just one has switched to Male Actor / Female Actor - The Screen Actors Guild Awards.

Elfkaiser Since: May, 2013
#9: Jun 15th 2021 at 8:38:26 PM

Some questions:

  • Should the troper carolyn_sawyer, whose edits sparked this discussion in the first place, be asked to stop further related edits which were noticed by this other att and be asked to participate in this wiki talk considering as far I'm aware she's been the primary person who has been changing all instances of the word actress to actor?
    • Given carolyn_sawyer's actual stated reason for making the changes in the first place, would the support of changing actress to actor be seen as supporting a single person's agenda rather than actually aiding the wiki?
  • In light of certain creators, how will this be applied to transwomen?
    • Actor is still very much seen as male gendered despite progress so would changing the word actress to actor on transwomen's pages be considered unintentionally transphobic?
    • If the word actress is kept on transwomen's pages out of fear of unintentional transphobia, should the word actress still then be changed to actor on ciswomen's pages?
    • If it's decided that actress be kept on transwomen's pages but not on ciswomen's, would this be considered biased in one form or another?
    • If it's decided that actress be kept on transwomen's pages but not on ciswomen's also, would it still be considered a form of othering especially given carolyn_sawyer's reason for why she changed instances of actress to actor in the first place?
  • If there's a consensus to use actor instead of actress, what would happen if someone who isn't aware of this consensus decides to change several instances of the word actor to actress in the future?
    • Will the consensus be a hard rule and would the person who made these edits be banned immediately?
    • If all their changes of actor to actress included both pages of transwomen and ciswomen, would they be punished solely for their edits only on ciswomen's pages or for all?

Just posing some questions that popped up from looking at this whole situation.

Edited by Elfkaiser on Jun 15th 2021 at 8:46:02 AM

ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#10: Jun 16th 2021 at 5:40:23 AM

Sorry I am a little late to this discussion. I didn't see it until it crossed over into my wheelhouse.

The most recent edit to the Transgender page removed all instances of the word "actress" and changed it to the gender neutral "actor". I understand these concerns raised by the editor and they've been addressed both here and in the ATT thread, but I also feel very strongly about *actively* degendering trans actresses who have fought for society to recognize them as women. I was hoping to get a larger community consensus on this matter. My preference would be to revert the edit, but I can't speak for everyone else.

Edited by ciyinwanderer on Jun 16th 2021 at 8:40:42 AM

This signature was thumped to preserve the dignity of the moderators.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#11: Jun 16th 2021 at 5:44:00 AM

TV Tropes isn't trying to be a party to these kinds of discussions, but the transgender community's push for gendered recognition seems to be completely at odds with the overall push for de-gendering our language that I've observed among progressive circles.

We can't have it both ways, literally. One way to resolve this might be to use the individual's preferred gendered noun, but what if they don't express a preference? Isn't it just as much an imposition to assume said preference as it is to use a general standard?

In other words: make up your minds.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 16th 2021 at 8:45:48 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#12: Jun 16th 2021 at 6:18:46 AM

Different people have different perspectives and priorities.

This signature was thumped to preserve the dignity of the moderators.
MegaJ Since: Oct, 2009
#13: Jun 16th 2021 at 6:33:27 AM

[up]x5, they're not "serious" awards, but MTV's Video Music Awards and Movie and TV Awards completely eliminated award categories by gender so they no longer have "best female artist, best actress", etc, they all compete in the same category.

I have no problem with "actor", but yes carolyn_sawyer should've been a bit more careful in regards to transwomen actresses. I know you "can't have it both ways" but transwomen are repeatedly exposed to transmisogyny and can't even escape it in online spaces.

BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#14: Jun 16th 2021 at 6:38:28 AM

Even after many professions are de-gendered, the term actress is seen as more acceptable since, unlike many other professions, the gender does play a role in the profession, since 99% of the time an actress plays a female character and an actor will play a male character.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#15: Jun 16th 2021 at 7:00:54 AM

My point is that our standard for gendered language on TV Tropes can't be "whatever the latest person with an agenda swoops in and decides to push on us".

Our general policy in these matters is "Don't rock the boat". This means that whatever is on the page as it stands should remain unless there's a very good reason to change it. Such a reason could be the publicly expressed preference of the individual in question.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 16th 2021 at 10:21:26 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#16: Jun 16th 2021 at 7:32:41 AM

I think "actress" is acceptable, especially for transgender actresses.

Edited by rjd1922 on Aug 30th 2021 at 3:43:12 AM

Keet cleanup
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#17: Jun 16th 2021 at 8:59:57 AM

I second that "actor/actress" should be "first come first serve" even though I personally don't care much which people use. However, I also agree that changing the trans actresses to say "actor" has Unfortunate Implications. I've actually seen more backlash against only using gender-neutral terms for trans women than using "actress" for female actors.

Additionally, while I have heard of the issue with gendered award categories before, I don't see how it pertains to this website, as we aren't splitting the actors into two gendered categories, we just describe them all regardless of gender. We have pages on nonbinary creators and we use "actor" for them because it's gender-neutral, but we could use actor or actress for a woman unless they've specifically wished to not use either term for themself (which is a rarity).

That's also basically my feelings on the black/Black thing — some people in the Black community use the capital letter and others don't, so just use whichever fits best unless the person you're writing about has a strong preference for either. I don't find it any more disruptive to the wiki than the American/commonwealth issue. You'll still be able to tell what you're reading. If nothing else, all the usage on a certain page can be made consistent for readability's sake, but across the entire wiki? I don't really care either way.

Maybe we should expand the page on American and Commonwealth Spellings to include other issues of ambiguous word preference?

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Elfkaiser Since: May, 2013
#18: Jun 16th 2021 at 11:31:45 AM

[up]x3 carolyn_sawyer whose edits prompted this discussion could be considered "rocking the boat" by what you're saying I guess, as she has been and still is based on her edits changing the word actress to actor on older pages.

Her latest edit as of this writing was on Mara Wilson and the page was originally written with actress.

She has given a reason why she has been changing all these old pages that have been written originally with actress to actor. Her reason basically amounts to that she believes that the word "actress" is sexist therefore she's kinda righting some kind of great wrong.

I don't know if changing actress to actor because it's sexist is a good reason but it feels almost like an agenda.

If the stance is our standard for gendered language on TV Tropes can't be "whatever the latest person with an agenda swoops in and decides to push on us" then letting carolyn_sawyer change all these old pages with her reason maybe could be seen going against that.


Just kinda pointing out what's she been doing as she's really tied to this discussion.

It feels somewhat pointless to be having this discussion amongst the general community whilst allowing someone who is actively implementing a unilateral decision related to said discussion on many old pages.

Edited by Elfkaiser on Jun 16th 2021 at 11:51:37 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#19: Jun 16th 2021 at 11:59:27 AM

Has anybody actually PM'd carolyn to come to this thread?

Edited by mightymewtron on Jun 16th 2021 at 2:59:35 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Elfkaiser Since: May, 2013
#20: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:27:48 PM

Just pm'd her to come here after just seeing her latest edits to Lisa Edelstein and Dana Delany, both of whom were old pages which were written originally with actress.

Edited by Elfkaiser on Jun 16th 2021 at 12:30:28 PM

carolyn_sawyer Since: Mar, 2020
#21: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:41:17 PM

You know what, it doesn't even matter to me anymore. I tried to spark discussion about how the word "actress" has negatively affected people's perception of the kind of roles women are allowed to play, but the fact that it's sparked this much of a debate has exhausted me. I'll stop changing the word "actress" to "actor" on pages from now on.

However, I do hope I've gotten through to at least some people with my points about how roles written for women are not nearly as varied as the roles for men, and how separating acting categories by gender is bullshit.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#22: Jun 16th 2021 at 12:58:45 PM

I mean, I get your point, but listing women as "actors" instead of "actresses" isn't going to fix the misogyny of casting calls and awards shows. That's a deeper systemic problem. And like others have said, unlike other unnecessarily-gendered job terminology, most female actors play female roles, so gender is more relevant in acting than it may be in other professions.

I did look it up and apparently this is an issue discussed across a lot of sources, most notably The Guardian, but there's no unanimous "right" or "wrong" answer. I, personally, like the term "actress" because I'm often proud of being a woman whenever I act, and I want to highlight that fact. I imagine that's also why degendering trans actresses in particular is iffy — many of them are, understandably, quite proud of the fact they're publicly women, and may not want that fact erased.

And again, TV Tropes isn't really categorizing all actors into two little gendered boxes the way that awards shows do. We have an index for Actors that includes people of all genders, as do its sub-indices. We also list nonbinary actors.

So like, you can use "actor" to talk about women who act, that's cool and good to normalize, but the effort to change every single instance on the wiki instead of letting the customs shift gradually seems like Righting Great Wrongs and we don't really want that, especially when it's not a unanimous cultural belief.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jun 16th 2021 at 4:03:58 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
carolyn_sawyer Since: Mar, 2020
#23: Jun 16th 2021 at 1:13:15 PM

I understand, and again, I'll stop changing "actress" to "actor". I just mean that roles written for men are incredibly wide and varied, whereas women usually get reduced to a stereotype in terms of the roles they're offered.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#24: Jun 16th 2021 at 1:19:01 PM

Very true! But that's kind of outside of the scope of this concept. We could expand roles for women and still call them "actresses" and we could call them "actors" and still pigeonhole them. It's more related to the connotations of "woman" than the connotations of "actress."

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#25: Jun 16th 2021 at 1:45:12 PM

[up][up] TV Tropes isn't trying to fix society's problems. That's way beyond the scope of what we offer.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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