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PROPLAYEN The Dreamer from Whitespace Since: Jan, 2023 Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
#2051: Oct 30th 2023 at 3:27:34 AM

Just finished watching the latest episode

The scene of Victor getting spaghettified from the radiation is certainly some Nightmare Fuel.

There's nothing you or I can do, so let the stars fall.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2052: Oct 30th 2023 at 6:13:32 AM

Bear with me as I'm going to write out some thoughts, and because of the annoyance of spoilers I'll put it in a folder instead.

    Spoilers Be Here Yo 

Sylvie believes that she has "freed the timelines" by killing He Who Remains, thereby restoring free will to everyone. As far as she's concerned (or was up until Loki visited her in Oklahoma), that's the end of her responsibility. For it to be truly free, you can't have people playing babysitter to the cosmos. She doesn't want the God job.

However, as she realizes that new variants of HWR are actually arising, she decides that her necessary role in things is to kill them. The fact that she'll be hopping around timelines for eternity doing this doesn't seem to have occurred to her. She represents Chaos, but a very near-sighted version.

Loki originally wanted to control the TVA, seeing it as the ultimate source of power. After going through a series of epiphanies and meeting He Who Remains, he now believes that, freedom or no, the proper role of the TVA is to monitor the timelines and keep them "safe" from omnicidal conquerors. He wants to do it at an institutional level with procedures and safeguards. He represents Order.

The fundamental difference between them is that Sylvie trusts only her own judgment, whereas Loki explicitly does not trust his. He believes in the need for oversight and consensus. His "We are gods" line recognizes the bleak, thankless, eternal task that only they can do. He's trying to persuade Sylvie that You Kill It, You Bought It.

The obvious synergy between Loki and Thor in terms of acknowledging their responsibility as gods did not go over my head.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 30th 2023 at 9:20:55 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#2053: Oct 30th 2023 at 7:19:34 AM

[up]Except they never actually mention any of this, unless I'm misremembering, and the only Kang they meet, they explicitly choose not to kill.

The TVA is also woefully unequipped to actually deal with any multiverse level threats or timeline invading threats. They couldn't deal with Sylvie and there's no indication at all they can deal with any other Kangs (or that they want to).

They can blow up timelines and deploy small groups, but their general and rebels, who are nominally a fairly significant force, fit in one room. Without blowing up a timeline, I think they lose to Kang's forces in the Quantum realm. I guess maybe they can just sit outside time, watch the timelines and kill any Kang who would later cause problems? Except we, as the audience, know they won't do that because we're going to be seeing more Kangs (though I guess they could do something to change Kang's appearance to address actor issues?).

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2054: Oct 30th 2023 at 7:24:25 AM

[up] The argument is clearly stated several times. Sylvie doesn't trust anyone but herself and thinks that the TVA needs to be burned because of how it has oppressed in the past. Loki believes that individuals can't be trusted with that kind of power and sees the TVA as an institution that can be reformed.

I don't see how it can get any simpler.

As for the TVA's capabilities, here I think we are seeing the constraints of the streaming format, because the limited cast contrasts with the extreme visuals. The TVA is implied to have thousands, if not millions of personnel, but we never see them directly. It's just one of those things we have to take for granted, I guess. (In Star Trek, the Enterprise has room for thousands of people but we only ever see a few dozen.)

How exactly Loki imagines that the TVA will allow infinite branched timelines but still prune off evil versions of He Who Remains is something we haven't seen yet, and as of the ending of this episode, we may never see.

Obviously, Kangs have to arrive in force in order for Phase 6 to happen as planned. So we know that whatever they do won't work: a Foregone Conclusion. That doesn't mean the effort is pointless, since it's about telling a story.

As for Jonathan Majors, we know that Loki Season 2 did not have any reshoots, so whatever the conclusion is, it wasn't changed because of his legal issues. Whether Marvel intends to recast him is something we simply don't know, never mind how.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 30th 2023 at 2:10:02 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2055: Oct 30th 2023 at 7:27:19 AM

Hopefully they can figure out a way to tie off the Kang problem since that's obviously borked as a Phase.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#2056: Oct 30th 2023 at 7:33:08 AM

Also, the TVA is implied to be colossal. I know we keep seeing the same few clerks and leadership, but like. Look outside the windows anytime there's an exterior shot. Holy mind bendingly huge city, batman!

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#2057: Oct 30th 2023 at 8:35:10 AM

[up][up][up]Right, the reformist versus abolitionist argument is clearly made (with extremely unsubtle real-world parallels) but, like, I know what a police reformist wants the police to be/do. I have no earthly idea what Loki wants the TVA to be/do.

It frankly reminds me of the ending of FATWS, what does Loki want? For the TVA to be better! At what? Something. How? Somehow.

I'm generally pretty incrementalist and reformist by nature, but I was just waiting for Sylvie to ask 'reform them to do what?'

I think they're heading towards some sort of 'protect all the timelines by keeping them separate' thing, which may tie in to the 'incursion' discussion over on the Doctor Strange side of things?

But that suffers from a failure of connective tissue and a failure of any sort of clear statement, which I think is because this fight is happening too early. The question of what to do later is a question for after they know if the loom is going to blow up or not, as that dictates a lot of the limits of their actions. It leaves the entire debate feeling unmoored from the situation they're in.

[up]This is true, though as noted above, I think the show really suffers from an unwillingness/inability to hire a dozen extras to stand in the background of shots in the lab and fiddle with monitors, or do little stuff like say 'The General and some of her men are in holding cell 12, the rest are on the lower levels.' to try to make it feel bigger? They seem to be relying entirely on the staging to make it feel like occupied.

Dumb question, do we know how much of this was shot on standard sets versus the big screen stage thing? This sort of has the feel of Mandalorian Season 3, we can only have 6-10 people on screen at once, but I may be backfilling that onto this show.

Edited by ECD on Oct 30th 2023 at 8:42:27 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2058: Oct 30th 2023 at 9:31:37 AM

I have no earthly idea what Loki wants the TVA to be/do.

I'm not sure he does either. Being heroic (or even anti-heroic) is new to him, and if we count the elapsed time on the show, he's been in the TVA for barely a week on his personal timeline. Since he arrived it's gone from crisis to worse crisis in an unending march towards catastrophe.

(There has been some inferred downtime while he learns the ropes as a Variant-analyst in S1E2 and while they search for Sylvie between S2E1 and S2E2, but we don't know how long those breaks are and they don't really matter to the story. The TVA is "timeless" — you could spend a day there or a hundred years and it would feel the same. I don't even know if the people there sleep.)

As for whether Loki or Sylvie is right in an absolute sense... the show isn't giving us any answers to these existential questions, and it may not want to. We have two episodes left to find out, but the uncertainty is completely intentional. Not every problem has a clear solution... or even any solution.


The question of what to do later is a question for after they know if the loom is going to blow up or not, as that dictates a lot of the limits of their actions.

Correct. I don't think this is a mistake, though. Loki is telling Sylvie that if they don't fix the immediate problem, there won't be an opportunity to solve the long-term ones. The patient may have cancer, but they also have a gunshot wound, and if we don't treat that the cancer won't matter.

This too has a lot of applicability to real-life issues.

Loki's core point is that if Sylvie gets her way, there won't be anyone to deal with Kang because everything is completely fucked. The beautiful subversion in Episode 4's ending is that it doesn't matter, since the TVA is nuked anyway. Both of them are wrong. Loki's shocked expression is his realization of this fact.


Dumb question, do we know how much of this was shot on standard sets versus the big screen stage thing?

From the camera work we can tell that most of the sets must have been practical. You simply can't do those types of single-take walk-and-talks, whip-pans, and similar shots against greenscreens. The technicals of the show are amazing considering that it's not a film.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 30th 2023 at 1:43:55 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2059: Oct 30th 2023 at 11:08:11 AM

Double-posting to link the mid-season trailer. Soon as I started watching, I noped out. I don't want to know!!!

For those willing to dive in, on first glimpse it looks like everything is going to get a redo, of sorts.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#2060: Nov 1st 2023 at 2:20:54 AM

This is just an expanded version of the debate we had at the end of last season, about whether order is worth genocide when chaos might bring even worse horrors. In this episode we see a direct consequence of that chaos. If we think about how many timelines Dox pruned, that was a mere drop compared to what the Loom's destruction just caused, never mind what may be coming down the line.

Simple binaries like order and chaos are reductive and misleading.

To wit: the Loom is a device built to control the natural flow of time. Its collapse is just an extension of what I've pointed out before, of how He Who Remains justified his power structure by holding the timeline hostage, including ensuring that if anything went wrong only he or Miss Minutes would be the only people able to fix it. Some force of order.

He's a petty tyrant who powered his kingdom from a dam upriver that he deliberately built with a deadman's switch, and the past four episodes have been everyone else arguing about how to disarm it before it goes off.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2061: Nov 1st 2023 at 5:29:22 AM

[up] Even if we grant all of that, he may not have been wrong about the reason for damming the metaphorical river. If he was, as he claims, a benevolent variant of Kang, then it becomes a "lesser evil" situation: a version of the trolley problem.

The MCU being what it is, the ultimate answer is almost certainly going to involve some other way of handling Kang that He Who Remains didn't anticipate, but we're going to go through The Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars before that can happen.

From a Watsonian perspective, the TVA is a horror guarding against even worse horrors — unless HWR was flat-out lying, of course, which is possible. From a Doylist perspective, the TVA has to fail at its function so we get the rest of Phases 5 and 6.

Edit: With two more episodes to go in this season, I wonder if they're going to try to answer the ultimate question or punt on it for later.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 1st 2023 at 11:11:57 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#2062: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:08:15 PM

With the Variety repost the future of Marvel is uncertain. Especially the rumors around the finale of this season. [down] I am but the Majors case in court is still looming over Marvel.

Edited by Mizerous on Nov 1st 2023 at 11:10:24 AM

Just Makima.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2063: Nov 1st 2023 at 8:09:21 PM

Can we discuss that after the finale, please? It's like some people enjoy poisoning other people's enjoyment of media.

Edit: And we have an MCU thread to discuss it. Rumors and leaks are similar to spoilers in terms of our guidelines, and extremely discourteous to just dump into a topic like this.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 1st 2023 at 11:13:22 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2064: Nov 2nd 2023 at 6:21:08 AM

I'm with Fighteer on this one. Save it for the finale.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#2065: Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:16:25 AM

Final episode features Mobius happening to find a mysterious button with no clear indication of what it does. He presses it, and then we cut to the Council of Kangs and see all of the Kangs suddenly shriek and transform into a different actor.

Confused by the fact that nothing seems to be happening, Mobius presses it again, and all of the Kangs transform back into Majors. He presses it a couple more times, and we see the Kangs change into a third actor, and then back into Majors. Frustrated, Mobius presses the button over and over, jamming his finger onto it dozens of times, before giving up and walking away.

We don't see what the final result was, giving Marvel complete freedom to decide what the shape of Kangs moving forward will be after the courts have finished deliberating Majors's case.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:18:13 AM

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MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#2066: Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:31:48 AM

[up] Being able to solve the solution in that way would be timely for Marvel, that's for sure.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#2067: Nov 2nd 2023 at 11:27:25 AM

I see what you did there. [tup][awesome][lol]

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M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#2068: Nov 2nd 2023 at 12:55:05 PM

Th BBC when they want a new Doctor

had a dream once where Kang was a Time Lord and regenerated to… my pfp. Dont ask where my pfp comes from.

Pantheon server for all who click here. Lost too much money and time, this coaster ain’t stopping.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2069: Nov 2nd 2023 at 12:56:41 PM

I've more than once compared this season of Loki to Doctor Who; S2E4 in particular reminds me of the episode "The Big Bang", in which the TARDIS explodes with the force of a supernova and causes a new universe to be born.

I'm trying very hard to avoid excessive speculation about the ending. We'll know in a week plus a few hours. Meanwhile, I'm tuning in tonight at 9 PM ET sharp.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 2nd 2023 at 3:58:20 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2070: Nov 2nd 2023 at 6:54:08 PM

Well, Episode 5 does nothing to dispel the Doctor Who comparisons. I swear the writers binged on Matt Smith's first season and took half of their notes from it. Which is not complaining: that's one of my favorite seasons of the show.

I think that this episode is going to get a lot of people complaining about WTF it's on about, and it's also very much a bridging story for the finale, so there isn't a great deal happening. I do like its subversion: it seems as if everything is back to normal, as if the TVA had never existed, but in fact everything is literally falling apart.

This episode also answers the question left over from the fourth: what are the actual consequences of the Loom's destruction? Turns out that it isn't good.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:54:39 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#2071: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:47:34 PM

Well, that was weird.

One Strip! One Strip!
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2072: Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:54:55 PM

I was a little worried by the first two episodes, especially the second. I thought they felt a bit rushed. But these last three have all been wonderful. Here's hoping they stick the landing, but even if they don't I've really enjoyed this.

Also, I love them continuing with the real-life mysteries having fantastic solutions. For anyone unaware, Casey is Frank Morris, one of only three prisoners to have ever escaped from Alcatraz. All three vanished after escaping, implying that they were taken by Kang.

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MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#2073: Nov 2nd 2023 at 9:32:22 PM

The idea that someone as harmless as Casey turned out to not just be an Alcatraz prisoner, but a Historical Domain Character who actually escaped the place is fucking amazing. And it's really cool for me too, since I remember learning about Frank Lee Morris's escape attempt in elementary/middle school (though I didn't remember his name until now), and I'm literally watching Season 2 in San Francisco. So a nice little meta moment for me.

I will admit I felt that this episode was simultaneously both too slow and too fast in its execution, but the ground it actually covers is really cool. I loved seeing what each of the people in the TVA was doing in their lives up until they became part of the TVA, and how in some ways it was better, and in some ways how it was worse.

Side note, it says that Don/Mobius was living in 2022 when Loki finds him. Does that mean he was living through the Snap? No wonder the dude's barely scraping by.

Honestly, I kind of relate to Loki wanting to have his TVA friends back. I can't quite explain or understand why, but there's something very satisfying about them all being together. They might not be the Guardians of the Galaxy, but they sure are fun to follow and watch them grow and change.

I'm really curious to see how this season wraps up. Loki's been in his own little corner for a while, and I'm curious to see where he goes from here.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2074: Nov 3rd 2023 at 7:01:35 AM

I've seen people talk about Loki: God of Stories as a really OP comic book arc, but it almost seems as if that's what this season is heading towards. If so, I'm all for it. The metafictionality is kind of nuts.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#2075: Nov 3rd 2023 at 7:01:52 AM

[up][up] Oh shoot, I didn't even think about that. He's probably a single dad because his wife got snapped.

Edited by MurlocAggroB on Nov 3rd 2023 at 8:02:16 AM

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