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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#176: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:03:43 AM

A funny thing pointed out to me is that the TVS is the embodiment of Loki’s freedom of choice bad, take it away for peoples own good Avengers-era philosophy and he hates being subject to it

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TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#177: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:11:34 AM

[up] Well, of course. He thought it wouldn't apply to him, just everybody else.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
Chortleous she/her friend to the hooved (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
she/her friend to the hooved
#178: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:11:45 AM

[up][up][up] In retrospect, them calling it "The Sacred Timeline" is a pretty big red flag that these guys aren't exactly on the up-and-up. Loki even explicitly calls out how arbitrary it is that his stealing the Tesseract was a deviation but the Avengers' time travel antics weren't, despite the former being more-or-less a direct consequence of the latter.

Edited by Chortleous on Jun 10th 2021 at 12:16:17 PM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#179: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:19:01 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if they keep the Time Keepers still mostly a mystery for this season.

I can see them being present maybe in the season finale, as a cliff-hanger of sorts. Or in a post credits scene, to possibly set up for the next season.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#180: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:21:38 AM

So now we can blame the Time Keepers for any time someone in the MCU does something inexplicable and out of character. tongue

Deleted scene of them resetting the timeline over and over every time Tony Stark being flippant with some guy didn’t turn them into a villain.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#181: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:38:39 AM

The issue with the T.V.A. is that even if they are evil, it still doesn't excuse the fact that they're being evil wrong. Even if they are brutal authoritarians cackling over how wicked they are, it still doesn't make sense that they're brutal authoritarians cackling at Loki instead of Tony and Scott. They're still dropping the iron jackboot on the wrong guy.

Similarly, the problem of why they even bother arresting people to put on trial and then reset when they're just going to detonate a reset bomb and reset the whole timeline anyway. There's no sense in it, good, evil, or otherwise. If Loki's conviction means that he gets reset, then just reset him with the rest of the timeline. Plant the bomb, reset everything (Loki included), and go home.

That they bother to arrest Loki and put him on trial isn't an ethical problem. It's a logistical one. These people's demonstrated methods utterly suck at achieving their agenda. If that agenda is actually super evil, then that just means they suck at being super evil. One way or another, there is no reason for these trials to occur.

I can believe that we're meant to think the T.V.A. is sinister. I don't believe that we're meant to think they're a bunch of dim-witted clowns who can't find their asses with both hands. That there are multiple reasons why Loki shouldn't even be here, even by the T.V.A.'s own logic and M.O., isn't foreshadowing. It's a plot hole.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 10th 2021 at 10:42:23 AM

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ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#182: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:40:19 AM

I'm sort of interested in where people like Mobius and Ravonna come from.

Casey, for example seems to be more or less a construct, and B-15 is probably the same way, but with more autonomy on account of being in the field.

In contrast, Mobius feels more like an actual human person, though he might not be human.

Afrovenator Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#183: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:42:10 AM

[up][up]"Logic in storytelling doesn't matter. Themes are the only things that matter." - Some random video essayist

"You see, I had to trap Sonic in the hell dimension cause he disrespected gamers."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#184: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:43:10 AM

That's not wrong, necessarily. Good or bad lore will not make or break a show. As I've said multiple times, Loki's first episode is highly entertaining despite its bad lore.

But the lore is bad. They really had to stretch to try and make this premise work, and the ripped seams are incredibly visible.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 10th 2021 at 10:44:34 AM

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Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#185: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:44:58 AM

I'm guessing a trial is to figured out those that intentionally deviated from the timeline and those that unintentionally did so.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Afrovenator Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#186: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:46:42 AM

What happens if it's unintentional? Do you get melted? Is your mind wiped? Is your free will taken?

"You see, I had to trap Sonic in the hell dimension cause he disrespected gamers."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#187: Jun 10th 2021 at 10:52:33 AM

Nobody without access to them travel can be a deliberate deviation, even then it seems that some time travel isn’t a deviation.

Right now I’m assuming that the TVA puts people on trial not because it makes sense logistically but because it makes them feel good. It’s about organisational moral and giving their workers someone to hate.

The TVA could just reset the timeline in each instance and nobody would know or be bothered. But then the TVA grunts might questions why all the variances keep appearing and if they’re doing the right thing resetting them. Give the TVA grunts someone to blame and punish for the deviations and they won’t question why they’re doing time resets constantly, they’ll accept it as part of the never-ending battle against “those dam deviants”.

TVA trials are show trials, and just like IRL show trials the purpose is to invoke certain emotions in the audience, not anything else.

Why did the TVA pick Loki to blame for this change in events? Because Loki is easy to hate, the TVA grunts might ask awkward questions if they have to arrest Captain America.

Edited by Silasw on Jun 10th 2021 at 6:54:12 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Afrovenator Since: May, 2021 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#188: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:01:26 AM

Don't they have to be all-knowing in order to perform a task like this? If they aren't, then it means that some individuals so slip away, which means they aren't doing their job. And if they are, then creating a trial is pointless because they should already know a person's intent.

"You see, I had to trap Sonic in the hell dimension cause he disrespected gamers."
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#189: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:10:53 AM

Ravonna knew how she was going to judge Loki, but she still asked him for a plea. Which real judges do all the time.

The TVA is very big on dotting all the 'i's and crossing all the 't's.

ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
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#190: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:14:38 AM

[up][up][up] Given how little they care about the Infinity Stones, the source of all the suffering throughout the Infinity Saga, I don't think the TVA would really think twice if they had to take in Steve, or any of the Avengers for that matter.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#191: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:14:52 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if by this point the trials are just something they do. Like, they had a point way back when they were doing them against temporal conquerers in the time war and such, but now it's just their way of stroking their own authority.

The Time Keepers definitely seem like a good candidate so far for a "meaningful once upon a time, but now lost to decadence, arrogance and corruption" story.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#192: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:15:48 AM

I missed the train for Wandavision. I missed the train for Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I haven't even watched Avengers: Endgame.

But by God, I'm going to watch this show while it's still hot off the presses! Or hot from the filming studio, which would be a more appropriate substitute for the metaphor.

...Well, I'm going to watch it soon. Like, in an hour.

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ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#193: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:21:06 AM

The plot of this show is directly tied into Endgame, but it does a good job of getting into its own story very quickly.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#194: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:22:49 AM

And if they are, then creating a trial is pointless because they should already know a person's intent.

If the trial was for the purpose of actually determining guilt then yeah, but the point of the trial may actually just be ritualistically pinning the blame for temporal variances onto someone.

Note that so far we’ve seen exactly two beings put on trial by the TVA, both were assholes and at least one was innocent.

My suspicion is that the TVA don’t arrest the person ‘responsible’ (as much as anyone can be responsible for times natural desire to branch) for the timeline divergence, they arrest the nearest asshole they can vaguely connect to events, that way they’ve got someone to hate on.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#195: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:23:17 AM

[up][up][up]You probably shouldn't be watching this if you haven't seen Endgame.

Like, a key aspect of the premise of this show spoils a plot point of Endgame.

Watch that first, then watch Wandvision, FATWS, and then this.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jun 10th 2021 at 6:23:52 PM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#196: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:26:19 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if by this point the trials are just something they do. Like, they had a point way back when they were doing them against temporal conquerers in the time war and such, but now it's just their way of stroking their own authority.

The Time Keepers definitely seem like a good candidate so far for a "meaningful once upon a time, but now lost to decadence, arrogance and corruption" story.

That's fair. I could actually see that.

I still maintain that there's no possible way for the variance to be Loki's fault, however. If the Sacred Timeline thinks that there is any other possible outcome to the Tesseract arriving in Loki's possession other than Loki immediately escaping, then the Sacred Timeline is drunk.

And if literally any part of that chain of events except "And then Loki escaped" is what created the variance, then Loki didn't cause the variance, he is the variance. If someone else was supposed to grab the Tesseract, then that person caused the variance. If Tony and Scott weren't supposed to lose the Tesseract, then they caused the variance. If someone was supposed to smack Loki to stop him from escaping, then that person caused the variance.

By definition, the person who caused the variance is whoever did something they were not supposed to do, or did not do something that they were supposed to do. It's whoever made the choice that altered the course of events.

As such, literally the only thing that could possibly make the variance Loki's fault is if Loki was supposed to choose, of his own volition, not to pick up the Tesseract and escape. That's literally what Ravonna is saying: that the choice that threw the timeline out of whack is that Loki was not supposed to use the Tesseract to escape after it slid over to him. And if the Time Keepers think there is even a remote possibility that Loki would ever make that choice, then they are dumb.

Run this scenario a million times and Loki will escape a million times, unless he either doesn't get the Tesseract or someone else intervenes - neither of which are his choice.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 10th 2021 at 11:26:42 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#197: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:29:42 AM

I wouldn’t wonder if they were more eager to blame him because they’ve already got a rogue Loki

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Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#198: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:34:11 AM

That makes sense to me. Also, while I don't see Steve's time travel shenanigans as necessarily included, it makes sense that the Avengers would generally get a pass if Kang is in charge of the TVA, since the Avengers probably created the technology that allows Kang to exist.

As far as everyone else meddling with the timestream goes, the TVA might just be dicks.

Nightshade92 from The Big Rotten Apple Since: Mar, 2021 Relationship Status: Remembering what Mama said
#199: Jun 10th 2021 at 11:57:16 AM

[up][up][up] I think that referring to him as a variant is just a slightly different way of saying that Loki himself is the variance in the timeline, even if you set aside the matter of who caused that variance.

Also, while I doubt the TVA is going to be anything but morally ambiguous at best, we haven't been shown a "typical" trial. Loki was being, well, Loki, and not even trying to make a case for himself. A hypothetical normal person who isn't the main character in a TV show might have a different experience, or the exact same one—at this point, we don't know.

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BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#200: Jun 10th 2021 at 12:00:38 PM

Back during the multiversal war there were countless unique timelines battling each other for supremacy, but the timekeepers brought peace by creating one supreme timeline and constantly destroying all others, which is totally different.


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